This morning at the high school I've taught at for 23 years, we had a meeting to discuss the gun incident that resulted in a recovered firearm yesterday afternoon which had the school in a soft lock down. This was our third gun incident this year. A colleague had pepper spray go off in her room yesterday with a group of 9th graders who are learning English...still trying to parse out that situation.
We have open teaching positions that are not filled...and they've been posted for months. And so we're politely asked to take on overages to the tune of 2/3 of my personal actual hourly rate. So as you can see, things don't feel great.
Our district is also going through a system-wide revamping of grading that nobody really seems to understand very well and the evidence behind the efficacy of this move to standards-based grading. Teachers are trying to figure out this system, both philosophically and pragmatically, without confident guidance. Families are confused, so are students. So are many teachers, admin, and counselors.
This a very standard, average high school of over 2K students in a standard suburban district with several elementary schools, middle school, and many, many administrators. We have many great programs, lots of AP options, lots of PSEO partnerships, and many students who are struggling in SO MANY WAYS. This is likely very similar to the large school district you all live closest to in all ways (and more).
So, yeah. It's been a morning and I as much as I look forward to AHP every week (every day!), I can't actually bring myself to read this interview. At least not right now, as I need to figure out how to address the ChatGPT-generated essays two kids turned in while at the same time trying to find a way to have them earn credits and I need to do it before 9:55 this morning but for some reason my hands are shaking and I'm writing this without proofreading instead.
You're doing a job without the necessary tools and I can't imagine just how demoralizing it is. Even writing something like "sending you strength" feels like bullshit.
We see what you're enduring and we're mad as hell and none of us have a clue of how to fix it or make life better for you other than to tell you to quit prioritizing what's best for kids and your colleagues and your bank account and quit. As I know from my own life, easier said than done. It sucks.
In my totally nonprofessional opinion, however, those shaking hands and this post can tell you a lot. You're out of resilience and running on fumes. And, I know from my own life, the body has a way of internalizing long term stress and anger and overwork. The physical and emotional impacts can be long term and devastating. That sucks, too.
Thank you for your empathetic candor. I really do appreciate it. Everything you said is true. It's just incredible how long it takes to make these big life decisions...at least for me. I've been working on divesting myself and creating reasonable boundaries around school since the political nightmare became reality in 2016. And a hell of a lot has happened to shake up public education since then.
Our education system is broken in so many ways, and conscientious, good-hearted teachers are taking on extraordinary burdens to shield students from the brokenness/help them make their way in the world in spite of it all. I am so sorry we're like this, CP. I hope we're close to a tipping point where enough people who care will start to step up for teachers (and kids!) and solve some of the problems you're grappling with.
Love this conversation! My late mother was a community college English teacher for 35 years, and there's no question that her students—many of whom went on to 4-year degrees—made the right choice for the start of their post-secondary education.
Now, switching hats from daughter to mother. I have a suggestion for parents whose kids are in hyper-competitive high schools (as my son's was, in Lexington, Mass.): Consider only visiting schools that your kid has been accepted to. I saw so many kids be disappointed because they didn't get into their "dream school," especially after making visits. My son (wise beyond his years—this was his idea!) said he wanted to wait for his acceptances before making any visits. He applied to 12 schools (several in the "overreach" category), and was accepted at 6. Much less anguish and a happy outcome that he felt more in control of. (And—bragging now!—he'll be graduating with a PhD in electrical engineering next year. 😁)
I guess the question is how do you narrow down your applications without visits? Like, I remember that I thought I wanted to apply to both BC and BU (I liked Boston, friends seemed to like the schools, etc.) so I did a Boston visit and went to all the schools and found out that BC was way too Catholic for my taste and BU was more of an urban campus than what I imagined. I think I did apply to Tufts though, it seemed nice. I could tell a dozen more stories like that (what's the difference between Hamilton and Skidmore or Haverford and Swarthmore or Lehigh and Lafayette or Wisconsin and Ohio State) and unless you're going to submit like 100 applications you've got to do some narrowing down on the front end.
Fair point! Son had the advantage of looking for a school with computer/electrical engineering, which eliminated most small schools (though not Harvard or MIT, of course). My question is: How are you judging? How many visits? I had a friend who took his son to visit Trinity in Connecticut (which Bob says he thought his son would love). They got out of the car, looked around, and his son announced, "Nope. Not for me." Didn't even stick around for a campus tour.
As I said, the wait-till-accepted suggestion worked for us. You do you! Also, when I went to college (1979!!), we didn't have the web yet, which made differentiating campuses much harder. I ended up at a large state university, partly because they had my major—which not all schools did back then—and because my mom (the community college teacher) was widowed, and my Social Security death benefit paid the whole thing (back when states supported higher ed!).
I like this advice, which also fits my experience. I applied in the UK, I didn't get into Edinburgh and was only slightly disappointed, chose one of my other fine choices, and then went to visit a friend in Edinburgh and LOVED IT SO MUCH. By then I was settled and happy elsewhere and so didn't mind, but I am sure if I had visited first I would have been gutted.
Fortunately, many/most kids are resilient and decide they're happy where they end up (assuming they find friends, succeed academically, etc., etc.). I'm so glad it worked out for you! (And I really need to visit Edinburgh!!)
This was my experience (ended up being happy where I ended up because I made friends and had wonderful teachers who became mentors). I was planning to go to a 4 year university but my local community college offered a scholarship that allowed high school seniors in the district that graduated with over a 3.5 GPA from high school to attend for FREE for two years. I was paying for my own college education so at the last minute I decided I couldn't turn that down. People at my high school were so horrified because I did so well in school, I think they viewed it as a waste for me to go to community college. The experience turned out to be by far the best years of my early 20s because the quality of instructors was so high, student support services at the community college were so robust, and I made so many meaningful social connections
Thank you for this. Thinking about my mom and how much she loved teaching is making me a little verklempt! She had students keep in touch even 20 years after she retired. She changed lives for the positive—sounds like you had a similar experience. ❤️
I teach English at a community college and I'm looking forward to reading this book. I've spent the past several years trying to redefine what "success" looks like for students but because I have an overwhelming number of PSEO students (high school students taking college credit) it feels impossible to move them beyond a grade based success model. And grades are so stupid! I hate them! They are especially stupid in a writing class where all my students are at totally different writing levels.
But when I've tried standards-based or ungrading or some other non-traditonal ways to assess, my students freak out. At the ages of 16, 17, 18 they appear to want the safety and security that grades seem to provide.
I know developing executive function and organization skills are important for academic success; this wasn't in the interview (hopefully it's in the book) but I know part of the struggle is that many students still haven't developed that pre-frontal cortex of the brain that helps with executive function and abstract thinking. It's one of the things that frustrates me about PSEO. It's such a great program and can help young people save so much money on college costs. But my observation is that quite a few of them just aren't ready because of where they are at in terms of brain development. It's not their fault! It's just part of growing as a human.
One other thing: Writers, PLEASE STOP USING COMMUNITY COLLEGES AS A CHARACTERIZING DESCRIPTOR FOR FAILURE. Or for socio-economic status. I feel like every month I read a novel or a short story or watch a show and there's some slam against community colleges. This derision continues to perpetuate shame around an option that can really help students succeed later in life. Since they are teaching institutions, the focus is on actual andragogy with teachers who are continually honing their practice. Classes are smaller which means you have better access to those highly-skilled teachers. And, of course, it's a much more affordable option.
I was nodding vigorously reading your ask that community college attendance not be used as a characterization of failure! I went to one and had an excellent experience, so that's my bias, but community colleges are hidden gems. The quality of instruction and the student support services you get for the price are amazing! I currently work at a 4 year university and I'm scheming for how to transition to working at a community college because I just love them
I am also scheming how to transition to a community college. I’ve attended or worked at every type of college (aside from Ivy and religious) and my community college is still the one I reflect on as the best experience.
An emphatic +1 to your last paragraph. I’m a community college graduate due to financial circumstances and went on to get an MS. I grew up in a tiny town and had undiagnosed neurodivergence. Community college was absolutely the best place for me to start college. And I got to play my favorite sport for a few more years on a scholarship. It saved me a ton of money and really set me up to do well when I transferred. As an adult later in my career, I spent six years working at a community college, as a dean of continuing ed. I hate how these schools are often portrayed. They are such hidden gems and a tremendous resource for their communities. Our local college, the one where I worked, has a robust honors program, in addition to many other opportunities for students of all interests and abilities. Our local university is not as well rounded.
Totally agree...I have a a degree from a Brand Name school, went to a Big State University for grad school and adjunct at a Big Research University and...
One of the best classes I ever took was Freshman English at a Community College in Georgia. Taught by a man who called himself a working poet and he just poured love into our class.
All three of my kids are going to CC before they go to a 4y degree. I am a total outlier in my socio economic group, but NO WAY am I putting kids through the meat grinder that is college acceptance in Metro West Boston.
Hi Melody, I hope you enjoy the book! And, I absolutely agree that community colleges should never be used as a descriptor for failure. I could have a huge conversation on that alone - SO much to say. Thank you for highlighting a critical point.
My children's entire school district just transitioned to all standards based grading. I'm interested to see how this plays out. 2 of my high school kids are taking PSEO classes, my third high schooler is neurodivergent (as are the other two), has learning disabilities, and major executive functioning issues so I'm also wondering how standards based grading will affect her.
There are a million things I want to say here, but the most important is THANK YOU! I am a student who always got good grades but didn't create the skills I needed to succeed outside of the classroom because I didn't realize that the structure provided to me by the classroom is what helped me succeed. It wasn't until 10+ years after I graduated (as I was starting a PhD program!) that I finally started building the executive function skills I needed. I really wish I had someone in high school tell me "Grades aren't the only measure of success" so I could start looking into other ways to grow myself.
One of my biggest fascinations is how college has evolved from an aspiration to an expectation and how that might be affecting all of the rhetoric we hear about the so-called declining value of college, so I can't wait to read this book and get some great insights. Again, thank you, Ana, for your work!
I feel like there are so many of us "gifted" children who are now masquerading as adults because we never learned or learned well into adulthood so many skills we should have learned as teenagers. My husband was valedictorian of his class and 25 years later lacks executive function to the point where it takes him hours to perform pretty simple tasks. I was constantly told how smart I was and how I "didn't have to try" to do well in school, and damn if I didn't start caring until I was in graduate school. Meanwhile, my "less bright" sister is a hugely successful lawyer because--gasp!--she had to learn the skills to do well in school.
Gosh, yes. If you effortlessly thrived in grade school, either college or real life can be such a shock. I never actually learned to study or apply myself to really difficult things, and now I'm trying to learn a foreign language and...I have no idea how to do it. I never learned that.
I also think that this kind of thing is partially responsible for my worst trait: a tendency to want to be immediately good at things and to give up on them if I'm not immediately good at them. Part of that is no doubt just personality, but it SUCKS.
I don't know your age, but I was in HS in the 90s and I feel like there was way way way too much focus on innate talent. There's a lot of focus now on teaching kids grit, and how to fail, and I think that's a great development.
Relatedly, I read an anecdote once about someone who was really good at learning languages. The person was asked how they succeeded - and the language learner replied that they gave themself an m&m every time they practiced and made a mistake. The whole idea of turning mistakes into mini-wins was a little revelatory to me.
Hi, are you me? It’s taken years of work (and the work continues) for me to not give up at something just cuz I'm not good at it immediately. It’s helped me to try and be zen about it, lean into the beginner’s mind. But I’d be lying if I said I don’t miss that feeling (true or otherwise) that I’m one of the smartest people in the room. Ego is real and stubborn to retrain.
Erin, YES!! One of the biggest surprises for me when I started doing this work is that students who had been labeled as gifted early on did not have these skills and it caught up with many of them in high school or college, if not before. And then, students who had been diagnosed with learning differences and were working with a learning specialist on these skills early on were really strong in these skills, and it helped improve their overall academic self-confidence. It is one reason I am so convinced all students need access to this work.
oh my god, yes this. Took me another decade after college to really figure out how to do *work* in the real world, in the ways that my employers, colleagues, and even friends expected. Being good at public K-12 education (at least in the 80s and 90s) does not at all mean you are good at skills that will be valued anywhere else.
But even though it feels like an expectation only ~35% of people over 26 have a BA or higher. So even though the conversation is all about going to college, the reality of completing college is something else.
Absolutely! Which is why I love the framework presented here because it helps people create a better match between what they really want to do and where they are going. As she mentioned, the economic uncertainties have created this idea in people's mind that you need to go to the most prestigious college, when a lot of people are truly better served in other ways, and would be more successful in other paths. But even when someone is matched well, many students still struggle because they don't have the resources they truly need to complete their degrees.
ooof, same here. My last semester of college is completely erased from my mind cus I was so depressed/anxious that I didnt have any more school to keep proving how good I was. I also had a few years of navigating those executive function skills i needed.
Kaylen, thank you!! Your story around building these skills is all too familiar, and is one of the things that motivates me to do this work! I appreciate your perspective so much around aspiration to expectation. Hope you enjoy the book! :)
I’m a college dean. I oversee, write and research academic policy institution-wide. One key for me is making our policies as flexible as possible to be responsive to student needs. I think policy should reflect care not be an impediment to it.
In doing this work, I think one of the biggest myths I was told was about the “permanent record.” Everything supposedly went on that record and therefore everything was high stakes, high stress and meant you were constantly hustling to not ruin your future.
I ended up graduating from a state college not a selective school and I’m thrilled with that choice. I made that choice after hopping between a few selective schools and hating all of them. The hustle culture made so many people in these institutions cruel. I didn’t want that for myself or the work I wanted to do in the world.
There’s evidence that elite schools are less able to critique power and its insidious influences (see Jane Mayer’s Dark Money).
I got the education I needed at a state school. And for my master’s and PhD I actively sought schools that fought against elitism and selectivity as their rationale for acceptance and existence.
There are things that can have some influence on our futures, sometimes a big influence. But even our permanent criminal record is not necessarily something that prevents an education or a change in direction. It can absolutely make it harder. But I try to tell students in my life not to obsessively worry about these things because I think that worry stifles their feelings and creativity. For example, there are many subjects like languages, art, and theatre that I didn’t try in high school because I didn’t think I could get a good enough grade. I tried some in college like languages but never got to the others. It’s heartbreaking to me that we don’t allow students to explore and too often only reward talent cultivated in a few weeks in these courses.
I don’t want to seem overly rosy. I know I had advantages in having supportive parents who were able to pay for college even though we were working class and my dad is disabled. We lived very simply without many extras or even some things people consider basic (a source of school bullying) because they prioritized education. My parents didn’t get to go to college and it’s a great honor to not only be the first in my family to do so but also to get a PhD. I’m glad I could also do that and hold onto our working class egalitarian values. I want that to be the norm and not the exception.
That point about avoiding creative things because you weren’t sure you’d get a high enough grade hits home for me. My biggest regret about high school is that I didn’t take any art classes beyond the required one, and the reason I didn’t was because the scholarship I was counting on required that I be in the top 3% of my graduating class, and anything less than an A would’ve knocked me out of that. But gosh, I wish I’d given myself a chance to explore and learn techniques for turning my artistic ideas into reality.
I got a "blue slip" in 2nd grade for being a brat in class and was in hysterics for weeks because I was convinced it was going to go on my Permanent Record. It was such a powerful motivating force.
This resonates so much with me at this particular moment, as I'm ranking the 26 high school programs we've selected for our 13-year old son's high school application (Chicago Public Schools). High school admissions test is today, which sends kids here into panic mode since they get one shot, there is no opportunity to retest, and so many parents push the narrative that getting into one of a handful of "selective enrollment" high schools is the ONLY path to success. These are 8th graders!! He's one of the few in his class who did not have private coaching and extensive test prep, we just gave him a good breakfast this morning and said, "Good luck, you'll be fine." But if I'm being honest, it's hard not to get caught up in the pervasive anxiety of this process.
I'm cheering for you, Emily - it is not easy to decline to participate in the crush of admissions to selective high schools. I work in a public high school, and I wish more parents with privilege would consider our school, rather than automatically thinking that their kid won't get what they need here. (And, as the book in question suggests - maybe what the parents think their kid needs is not actually what they need, or what will make them happy in the long run).
Emily, your son's story reminds me of my own. I showed up the day of testing in 8th grade with nothing but a pencil and a good night's sleep. It all turned out fine. It is definitely hard to not get caught up, and I am glad the interview resonated! It is absolutely hard not to get caught up in the anxiety of the process, 100% agreed and one of the reasons I wrote the book :)
Oh, I love this! This is exactly what college *should* be about - finding yourself, discovery, challenge, creativity - and those things happen inside classrooms but outside them too. What a deeply humane way to approach the late high school and college years.
A lot of my students have been told that what they do in college will shape their whole life. They've been told this in terms of getting good grades, mostly, and taking "productive" extra-curriculars. This leads to so many of my seniors freezing when they think about what comes after college, because they've been led to believe that the choice they make at 21, 22, will define absolutely everything, without room for reorientation and change, forever. And it's not true! How much better if we could all say, you are kind, thoughtful, and self-reflective, and those skills will serve you beautifully no matter how you make an income. How much pressure it would take off my students who have to find a job and fast because they need to support their families; who have caregivers who want to see a particular return on investment; who truly have no clue what they want to do next and need space to figure it out.
As someone who was a conventional high achiever, got a PhD but left academia, now teaches rabbinical students, and has a neurodivergent toddler whose barometers of success will probably look different than mine and her father's, this was super interesting. One of the challenges we talk about a lot where I work is how to think about assessment when we are not a university, and where the skills to be a good rabbi are not necessarily the same as the skills to be a good rabbinic students. I know that some of my students are going to be amazing rabbis but they are hard to teach, and there are some who are a pleasure to teach but I worry about whether they have the soft skills needed to succeed as rabbis. (Some, of course, are both, and unfortunately there are a few who are neither.) Part of what's interesting about the work I'm doing now is the ways in which is pushes my colleagues and me to think about our students more holistically, rather than only about how they do in each class in a vacuum, and it really challenges and changes the ways I think about what it means to define success in my classroom.
Thank you for this conversation! Yesterday, my colleagues and I spent 4 hours after school reading and discussing personal statements with our students as part of our College App Party (yes, calling it a party does not make it so). It's so exhausting to observe the level of stress and anxiety this process causes. Because we have constant conversations about how there are only 30 name brand colleges, students, parents and teachers miss the reality that the schools with the best social mobility are often schools like CUNY or Cal State LA. With my 10th graders, we do a unit each year about what admissions mean: that it's not necessarily validation of the student, but that students are selected because they fill an institutional need. This is both a liberating and depressing realization.
I have two young adult kids who fell off the autism cliff, hard, after graduation, which for them happened after COVID lockdowns, where they lost a ton of ground.
They tried community college and flunked out; one ended up in inpatient psych care, and we learned after getting neuropsych testing (accessible through our privilege of having good health insurance) that she has autism and ADHD, or AuDHD.
The other was diagnosed with autism at age 11 and was denied much-needed IEPs for years because their grades were too good. The curse of the "high-functioning" person with autism. Their grades and faith in the educational system slid off and they started failing classes and ended up with a GED. Today, at 21, and no one will hire them, not even McDonald's.
Testing shows they're incredibly intelligent--smarter than 95% of the general population--but they could not even begin to function in this sort of academic framework being described here. I will say that we emphasized effort and curiosity over grades and definitely opted out of the race to have our kids get free college or get into the "best" schools out of our own anxiety for them to make it in this world. And that anxiety is valid; it's really, really hard out there for Gen Z with the current cost of living. My oldest has a bachelor's degree and a good marketing job and is living with us to save up to move out.
I find myself bewildered and lost, and pursuing options through our state government job coaching (which does offer them a path back to college or trade school) and social security disability.
I'm sharing this to say that there is an entire world of students who don't even begin to fit into the discussions happening here, and they are definitely not being served--believe me, I fought for it. I'm still fighting for it. And every day I think of the parents who can't fight for it because they're working two jobs, who don't have great insurance, or a great school district like we did, and I just want to cry.
I’ve written and deleted several comments because I can’t quite figure out what I want to say. My daughter is 16 and a junior. I have no ego behind where she goes and have been encouraging at least a gap year and/or community college. She’ll be 17 when school starts if she goes right after HS graduation and I feel like could benefit from some experiences to hone her interests so she enters school more confident about her abilities.
We’ve really tried not to put pressure on our kids around school aside from putting in effort (i.e. effort is more important than grades), but it’s so difficult because grades do matter! I don’t know how to thread the needle between being ok with a failing grade in a hard class she was put in to fit in another class she needed as long as she works hard and also not reinforcing her fears that making a bad grade in this class affects her chances of getting into college or meeting other goals, like getting into National Honor Society.
I was a 17 year old in college at one of those "best of" schools on the other side of the country. I don't think I would have listened to advice about taking a gap year, but I so wish I had. I was able to maintain for a year and a half and then my mental health crashed and burned. I went back to a different school for the next school year and it was so much better for me. I wasn't socially, emotionally or academically prepared. If I'd had 2 out of 3, I might have done better.
Love this discussion and the comments as well! As a “former gifted kid” who did all the “right” things to get into a college (albeit one known for partying as well as academics) and who swiftly told administrators who suggested I apply to Ivy League schools “no,” I WISH I had more time in high school to just be a kid in the early 2010s.
Between homework (and there was tons of it), extracurriculars that we were told would be the ticket into college since grades and test scores weren’t enough, jobs, and trying to have a social life, I was exhausted all the time. It didn’t help that school started at 7:20am.
As a result, I feel I have very little handle on what actually makes *me* happy and what’s important to me. All that has been programmed out in place of what my family, community and institutions think of as right. At 27, I’m just starting to look around and see if what I’m doing (after graduating with a dual Bachelors and working in a field that was picked at 18) is actually making myself happy and if I’m accomplishing what’s important to me.
The answer right now seems to be a resounding no but I’m hoping to change that over the next few years.
I relate to this a lot, especially the whole “college is everything” vibe, I wish I took a gap year, but I didn’t feel like I needed one. I think I got more flexibility in college in terms of “should” but I also haven’t received as much pressure from parents compared to from peers, teachers, etc. I think the best job I’ve had since college, in terms of feeling like it both challenged and rewarded me, and balanced with the rest of my life, was serving and managing at a high end restaurant. I don’t miss the late hours, or cranky customers, but I miss working <30 hours a week for about what I get paid now, and being able to both be impactful on the clock, and leave work problems behind when I clock out. But that sort of job is a lot less morally virtuous to our society than, say, a law firm, or a consultancy, or something like that.
So many thoughts!! I was a very “high achieving” student, and graduated high school in 2001. As I’ve watched these developments unfold, I’ve always been SO grateful that I was able to do the college thing without all of this pressure. Which isn’t to say there was none: I definitely caught flack from teachers, friends, and guidance counselors in my small rural school district for not applying to any of the Ivies or schools with similar status; I think there was some disappointment about not being able to brag on me as a super-successful student? But I just applied to one school, Ohio State, which was out of state but had a few very appealing features (in addition to being my parents’ alma mater): an *amazing* scholarship (including full tuition plus a housing stipend!) for out of state National Merit Scholars students who listed them as “first choice” (which I had), automatic acceptance into the Honors program for ACT scores over 34 (mine was), and an excellent linguistics department (my intended major). I had a great experience there, and met my husband!
I went on to grad school at the highly-selective private institution where I now teach, and have seen firsthand just how much of a pressure-cooker this competitive environment is. And we’re now raising our neurodivergent almost 12yo in a school district that prides itself on how “well-prepared” their students are for selective colleges. We’ve been trying to make sure we talk a lot about how great community college is, because it’s so obvious that she’s gonna get nothing but “go to the best possible 4 year college!” from her school, and maybe that will turn out to be both possible and desirable to her, but it’s so important to us that she not feel like a failure if her path looks different.
(I also think about how much I was expected to go to graduate school...both my parents have graduate degrees...and while I love the work I now do as a 1st-year writing professor, I also am just so deeply sad for my past self, for whom earning a PhD just felt like an “of course” that wasn’t worth celebrating - and no one in my family
DID celebrate it. I’m so conscious of how expecting something of someone can rob them of a sense of joy and accomplishment when they do it.)
A few thoughts from a Canadian academic advisor of 13 years/therapist-in-training:
We don't have even close to the same rigorous, competitive admissions processes here in Canada. In fact, there are many schools that still admit based solely on a student's grade 12 marks - no qualitative measures at all. Sure, we have schools that are considered more elite than others that demand higher admissions averages than others, but the sense of competition and the stress placed on high school students is not nearly what I see in our neighbours to the south. And yet, I have seen this exact same evolution in our students. They are outcome-focused and extrinsically motivated. They lack executive function and critical thinking skills, and they don't pause to consider the metacognitive factors that might be contributing to their academic challenges.
I have long considered all of the above an effect of the scarcity mindset that's characteristic of so many of us in the post-Great Recession era. I went to one of those "elite" schools whose name appears on lots of "best in the world" lists. And yeah, I went as a former gifted kid who never had to apply herself and I have spent a lot of my adulthood grappling with the lessons I missed out on as a result, but I went to university and did a liberal arts degree in the early 2000s for the love of learning. So did almost all my friends. I don't think the kids these days have that luxury as they look out on a world with ridiculous housing costs, wages that haven't kept up with inflation, and an ever-quickening climate crisis. To them, it truly feels like they need to have their life figured out ASAP, and they believe, rightfully or wrongfully, that getting into the "best" school (instead of the school that's the best fit for them) is the answer. Unfortunately, when they get on campus, they are often lacking the skills to excel in academically demanding programs, and that can lead to poor mental health outcomes and identity foreclosure.
It's heartening to read about the central points of Ana's book. I am hopeful that we can shift the conversation with middle and high school students and place their focus on cultivating skills that will help them be good learners and actually enjoy the learning process. I love the emphasis on the engaged university student and this is something I'm going to come back to in my work with this demographic.
What a great discussion. The world has changed and sometimes we have a hard time keeping up with that change. I too was "enormously lucky'. Here is why. I am a first gen college student. My parents had no idea how to guide me. I had no support from high school counselors. I wasn't a high achieving student, so I wasn't on their radar. My parents wanted us to go to college, so my father said he would pay if I went to the local state school. Done.
That opened up the world to me. I was able to test things out, discover new ways of thinking, fail, succeed and flourish. I was able to study abroad which opened other doors to me. Without that I don't know where I would be. Yet I am in a wonderful place and am still able to grow and succeed.
In today's college market. I might end up where I did anyway. The one thing schools offer now, that they didn't is guidance. Their student body is their success, so they have to help these students. I volunteer through my alumni associations and that gives me a view into how they work with incoming students. It is remarkable.
First of all: I deeply appreciate your compassionate and contextual approach to helping students, Ana. The world would be better off if more people whose job it is to guide students were like you!
Second, It's going WAY back in time, but some really good background context of how college admissions even started being a thing can be found in the podcast Gatecrashers about Jews in the Ivy League.
I highly recommend the whole thing, but if I recall correctly, it's episodes 1 and 4 that really dig into the way that the foundation of the modern admissions system (legacy admissions, prioritizing out of state students, etc.) got started. No surprise that it was a way of keeping out undesirables.
Another thing that the show does well is say just why Jewish students in the first half of the 20th century and Asian-American students in the second half were such a disproportionate part of the student body--it basically comes down to immigrant striving and a desire for the first generation of American-born kids to prove themselves and "make it" in a new country.
This morning at the high school I've taught at for 23 years, we had a meeting to discuss the gun incident that resulted in a recovered firearm yesterday afternoon which had the school in a soft lock down. This was our third gun incident this year. A colleague had pepper spray go off in her room yesterday with a group of 9th graders who are learning English...still trying to parse out that situation.
We have open teaching positions that are not filled...and they've been posted for months. And so we're politely asked to take on overages to the tune of 2/3 of my personal actual hourly rate. So as you can see, things don't feel great.
Our district is also going through a system-wide revamping of grading that nobody really seems to understand very well and the evidence behind the efficacy of this move to standards-based grading. Teachers are trying to figure out this system, both philosophically and pragmatically, without confident guidance. Families are confused, so are students. So are many teachers, admin, and counselors.
This a very standard, average high school of over 2K students in a standard suburban district with several elementary schools, middle school, and many, many administrators. We have many great programs, lots of AP options, lots of PSEO partnerships, and many students who are struggling in SO MANY WAYS. This is likely very similar to the large school district you all live closest to in all ways (and more).
So, yeah. It's been a morning and I as much as I look forward to AHP every week (every day!), I can't actually bring myself to read this interview. At least not right now, as I need to figure out how to address the ChatGPT-generated essays two kids turned in while at the same time trying to find a way to have them earn credits and I need to do it before 9:55 this morning but for some reason my hands are shaking and I'm writing this without proofreading instead.
You're doing a job without the necessary tools and I can't imagine just how demoralizing it is. Even writing something like "sending you strength" feels like bullshit.
Thank you for the work you do. I feel as bad for teachers as I do for students right now. Y'all are both in impossible situations in so many ways.
Wow! I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this!!
As a college instructor - ChatGPT has me so completely burned out - I really almost quit a few months ago.
We see what you're enduring and we're mad as hell and none of us have a clue of how to fix it or make life better for you other than to tell you to quit prioritizing what's best for kids and your colleagues and your bank account and quit. As I know from my own life, easier said than done. It sucks.
In my totally nonprofessional opinion, however, those shaking hands and this post can tell you a lot. You're out of resilience and running on fumes. And, I know from my own life, the body has a way of internalizing long term stress and anger and overwork. The physical and emotional impacts can be long term and devastating. That sucks, too.
Thank you for your empathetic candor. I really do appreciate it. Everything you said is true. It's just incredible how long it takes to make these big life decisions...at least for me. I've been working on divesting myself and creating reasonable boundaries around school since the political nightmare became reality in 2016. And a hell of a lot has happened to shake up public education since then.
Our education system is broken in so many ways, and conscientious, good-hearted teachers are taking on extraordinary burdens to shield students from the brokenness/help them make their way in the world in spite of it all. I am so sorry we're like this, CP. I hope we're close to a tipping point where enough people who care will start to step up for teachers (and kids!) and solve some of the problems you're grappling with.
Love this conversation! My late mother was a community college English teacher for 35 years, and there's no question that her students—many of whom went on to 4-year degrees—made the right choice for the start of their post-secondary education.
Now, switching hats from daughter to mother. I have a suggestion for parents whose kids are in hyper-competitive high schools (as my son's was, in Lexington, Mass.): Consider only visiting schools that your kid has been accepted to. I saw so many kids be disappointed because they didn't get into their "dream school," especially after making visits. My son (wise beyond his years—this was his idea!) said he wanted to wait for his acceptances before making any visits. He applied to 12 schools (several in the "overreach" category), and was accepted at 6. Much less anguish and a happy outcome that he felt more in control of. (And—bragging now!—he'll be graduating with a PhD in electrical engineering next year. 😁)
I guess the question is how do you narrow down your applications without visits? Like, I remember that I thought I wanted to apply to both BC and BU (I liked Boston, friends seemed to like the schools, etc.) so I did a Boston visit and went to all the schools and found out that BC was way too Catholic for my taste and BU was more of an urban campus than what I imagined. I think I did apply to Tufts though, it seemed nice. I could tell a dozen more stories like that (what's the difference between Hamilton and Skidmore or Haverford and Swarthmore or Lehigh and Lafayette or Wisconsin and Ohio State) and unless you're going to submit like 100 applications you've got to do some narrowing down on the front end.
Fair point! Son had the advantage of looking for a school with computer/electrical engineering, which eliminated most small schools (though not Harvard or MIT, of course). My question is: How are you judging? How many visits? I had a friend who took his son to visit Trinity in Connecticut (which Bob says he thought his son would love). They got out of the car, looked around, and his son announced, "Nope. Not for me." Didn't even stick around for a campus tour.
As I said, the wait-till-accepted suggestion worked for us. You do you! Also, when I went to college (1979!!), we didn't have the web yet, which made differentiating campuses much harder. I ended up at a large state university, partly because they had my major—which not all schools did back then—and because my mom (the community college teacher) was widowed, and my Social Security death benefit paid the whole thing (back when states supported higher ed!).
Parenting—it's rough! 😁
I like this advice, which also fits my experience. I applied in the UK, I didn't get into Edinburgh and was only slightly disappointed, chose one of my other fine choices, and then went to visit a friend in Edinburgh and LOVED IT SO MUCH. By then I was settled and happy elsewhere and so didn't mind, but I am sure if I had visited first I would have been gutted.
Fortunately, many/most kids are resilient and decide they're happy where they end up (assuming they find friends, succeed academically, etc., etc.). I'm so glad it worked out for you! (And I really need to visit Edinburgh!!)
This was my experience (ended up being happy where I ended up because I made friends and had wonderful teachers who became mentors). I was planning to go to a 4 year university but my local community college offered a scholarship that allowed high school seniors in the district that graduated with over a 3.5 GPA from high school to attend for FREE for two years. I was paying for my own college education so at the last minute I decided I couldn't turn that down. People at my high school were so horrified because I did so well in school, I think they viewed it as a waste for me to go to community college. The experience turned out to be by far the best years of my early 20s because the quality of instructors was so high, student support services at the community college were so robust, and I made so many meaningful social connections
Thank you for this. Thinking about my mom and how much she loved teaching is making me a little verklempt! She had students keep in touch even 20 years after she retired. She changed lives for the positive—sounds like you had a similar experience. ❤️
I teach English at a community college and I'm looking forward to reading this book. I've spent the past several years trying to redefine what "success" looks like for students but because I have an overwhelming number of PSEO students (high school students taking college credit) it feels impossible to move them beyond a grade based success model. And grades are so stupid! I hate them! They are especially stupid in a writing class where all my students are at totally different writing levels.
But when I've tried standards-based or ungrading or some other non-traditonal ways to assess, my students freak out. At the ages of 16, 17, 18 they appear to want the safety and security that grades seem to provide.
I know developing executive function and organization skills are important for academic success; this wasn't in the interview (hopefully it's in the book) but I know part of the struggle is that many students still haven't developed that pre-frontal cortex of the brain that helps with executive function and abstract thinking. It's one of the things that frustrates me about PSEO. It's such a great program and can help young people save so much money on college costs. But my observation is that quite a few of them just aren't ready because of where they are at in terms of brain development. It's not their fault! It's just part of growing as a human.
One other thing: Writers, PLEASE STOP USING COMMUNITY COLLEGES AS A CHARACTERIZING DESCRIPTOR FOR FAILURE. Or for socio-economic status. I feel like every month I read a novel or a short story or watch a show and there's some slam against community colleges. This derision continues to perpetuate shame around an option that can really help students succeed later in life. Since they are teaching institutions, the focus is on actual andragogy with teachers who are continually honing their practice. Classes are smaller which means you have better access to those highly-skilled teachers. And, of course, it's a much more affordable option.
I was nodding vigorously reading your ask that community college attendance not be used as a characterization of failure! I went to one and had an excellent experience, so that's my bias, but community colleges are hidden gems. The quality of instruction and the student support services you get for the price are amazing! I currently work at a 4 year university and I'm scheming for how to transition to working at a community college because I just love them
I am also scheming how to transition to a community college. I’ve attended or worked at every type of college (aside from Ivy and religious) and my community college is still the one I reflect on as the best experience.
An emphatic +1 to your last paragraph. I’m a community college graduate due to financial circumstances and went on to get an MS. I grew up in a tiny town and had undiagnosed neurodivergence. Community college was absolutely the best place for me to start college. And I got to play my favorite sport for a few more years on a scholarship. It saved me a ton of money and really set me up to do well when I transferred. As an adult later in my career, I spent six years working at a community college, as a dean of continuing ed. I hate how these schools are often portrayed. They are such hidden gems and a tremendous resource for their communities. Our local college, the one where I worked, has a robust honors program, in addition to many other opportunities for students of all interests and abilities. Our local university is not as well rounded.
Totally agree...I have a a degree from a Brand Name school, went to a Big State University for grad school and adjunct at a Big Research University and...
One of the best classes I ever took was Freshman English at a Community College in Georgia. Taught by a man who called himself a working poet and he just poured love into our class.
All three of my kids are going to CC before they go to a 4y degree. I am a total outlier in my socio economic group, but NO WAY am I putting kids through the meat grinder that is college acceptance in Metro West Boston.
Learning is life-long
Hi Melody, I hope you enjoy the book! And, I absolutely agree that community colleges should never be used as a descriptor for failure. I could have a huge conversation on that alone - SO much to say. Thank you for highlighting a critical point.
My children's entire school district just transitioned to all standards based grading. I'm interested to see how this plays out. 2 of my high school kids are taking PSEO classes, my third high schooler is neurodivergent (as are the other two), has learning disabilities, and major executive functioning issues so I'm also wondering how standards based grading will affect her.
There are a million things I want to say here, but the most important is THANK YOU! I am a student who always got good grades but didn't create the skills I needed to succeed outside of the classroom because I didn't realize that the structure provided to me by the classroom is what helped me succeed. It wasn't until 10+ years after I graduated (as I was starting a PhD program!) that I finally started building the executive function skills I needed. I really wish I had someone in high school tell me "Grades aren't the only measure of success" so I could start looking into other ways to grow myself.
One of my biggest fascinations is how college has evolved from an aspiration to an expectation and how that might be affecting all of the rhetoric we hear about the so-called declining value of college, so I can't wait to read this book and get some great insights. Again, thank you, Ana, for your work!
I feel like there are so many of us "gifted" children who are now masquerading as adults because we never learned or learned well into adulthood so many skills we should have learned as teenagers. My husband was valedictorian of his class and 25 years later lacks executive function to the point where it takes him hours to perform pretty simple tasks. I was constantly told how smart I was and how I "didn't have to try" to do well in school, and damn if I didn't start caring until I was in graduate school. Meanwhile, my "less bright" sister is a hugely successful lawyer because--gasp!--she had to learn the skills to do well in school.
Gosh, yes. If you effortlessly thrived in grade school, either college or real life can be such a shock. I never actually learned to study or apply myself to really difficult things, and now I'm trying to learn a foreign language and...I have no idea how to do it. I never learned that.
I also think that this kind of thing is partially responsible for my worst trait: a tendency to want to be immediately good at things and to give up on them if I'm not immediately good at them. Part of that is no doubt just personality, but it SUCKS.
I don't know your age, but I was in HS in the 90s and I feel like there was way way way too much focus on innate talent. There's a lot of focus now on teaching kids grit, and how to fail, and I think that's a great development.
Relatedly, I read an anecdote once about someone who was really good at learning languages. The person was asked how they succeeded - and the language learner replied that they gave themself an m&m every time they practiced and made a mistake. The whole idea of turning mistakes into mini-wins was a little revelatory to me.
I was in elementary and middle school in the 90s, and I agree. I got put in the "gifted" program from day one.
That's such a charming story!
Hi, are you me? It’s taken years of work (and the work continues) for me to not give up at something just cuz I'm not good at it immediately. It’s helped me to try and be zen about it, lean into the beginner’s mind. But I’d be lying if I said I don’t miss that feeling (true or otherwise) that I’m one of the smartest people in the room. Ego is real and stubborn to retrain.
Erin, YES!! One of the biggest surprises for me when I started doing this work is that students who had been labeled as gifted early on did not have these skills and it caught up with many of them in high school or college, if not before. And then, students who had been diagnosed with learning differences and were working with a learning specialist on these skills early on were really strong in these skills, and it helped improve their overall academic self-confidence. It is one reason I am so convinced all students need access to this work.
oh my god, yes this. Took me another decade after college to really figure out how to do *work* in the real world, in the ways that my employers, colleagues, and even friends expected. Being good at public K-12 education (at least in the 80s and 90s) does not at all mean you are good at skills that will be valued anywhere else.
But even though it feels like an expectation only ~35% of people over 26 have a BA or higher. So even though the conversation is all about going to college, the reality of completing college is something else.
Absolutely! Which is why I love the framework presented here because it helps people create a better match between what they really want to do and where they are going. As she mentioned, the economic uncertainties have created this idea in people's mind that you need to go to the most prestigious college, when a lot of people are truly better served in other ways, and would be more successful in other paths. But even when someone is matched well, many students still struggle because they don't have the resources they truly need to complete their degrees.
ooof, same here. My last semester of college is completely erased from my mind cus I was so depressed/anxious that I didnt have any more school to keep proving how good I was. I also had a few years of navigating those executive function skills i needed.
Kaylen, thank you!! Your story around building these skills is all too familiar, and is one of the things that motivates me to do this work! I appreciate your perspective so much around aspiration to expectation. Hope you enjoy the book! :)
I’m a college dean. I oversee, write and research academic policy institution-wide. One key for me is making our policies as flexible as possible to be responsive to student needs. I think policy should reflect care not be an impediment to it.
In doing this work, I think one of the biggest myths I was told was about the “permanent record.” Everything supposedly went on that record and therefore everything was high stakes, high stress and meant you were constantly hustling to not ruin your future.
I ended up graduating from a state college not a selective school and I’m thrilled with that choice. I made that choice after hopping between a few selective schools and hating all of them. The hustle culture made so many people in these institutions cruel. I didn’t want that for myself or the work I wanted to do in the world.
There’s evidence that elite schools are less able to critique power and its insidious influences (see Jane Mayer’s Dark Money).
I got the education I needed at a state school. And for my master’s and PhD I actively sought schools that fought against elitism and selectivity as their rationale for acceptance and existence.
There are things that can have some influence on our futures, sometimes a big influence. But even our permanent criminal record is not necessarily something that prevents an education or a change in direction. It can absolutely make it harder. But I try to tell students in my life not to obsessively worry about these things because I think that worry stifles their feelings and creativity. For example, there are many subjects like languages, art, and theatre that I didn’t try in high school because I didn’t think I could get a good enough grade. I tried some in college like languages but never got to the others. It’s heartbreaking to me that we don’t allow students to explore and too often only reward talent cultivated in a few weeks in these courses.
I don’t want to seem overly rosy. I know I had advantages in having supportive parents who were able to pay for college even though we were working class and my dad is disabled. We lived very simply without many extras or even some things people consider basic (a source of school bullying) because they prioritized education. My parents didn’t get to go to college and it’s a great honor to not only be the first in my family to do so but also to get a PhD. I’m glad I could also do that and hold onto our working class egalitarian values. I want that to be the norm and not the exception.
That point about avoiding creative things because you weren’t sure you’d get a high enough grade hits home for me. My biggest regret about high school is that I didn’t take any art classes beyond the required one, and the reason I didn’t was because the scholarship I was counting on required that I be in the top 3% of my graduating class, and anything less than an A would’ve knocked me out of that. But gosh, I wish I’d given myself a chance to explore and learn techniques for turning my artistic ideas into reality.
I got a "blue slip" in 2nd grade for being a brat in class and was in hysterics for weeks because I was convinced it was going to go on my Permanent Record. It was such a powerful motivating force.
This resonates so much with me at this particular moment, as I'm ranking the 26 high school programs we've selected for our 13-year old son's high school application (Chicago Public Schools). High school admissions test is today, which sends kids here into panic mode since they get one shot, there is no opportunity to retest, and so many parents push the narrative that getting into one of a handful of "selective enrollment" high schools is the ONLY path to success. These are 8th graders!! He's one of the few in his class who did not have private coaching and extensive test prep, we just gave him a good breakfast this morning and said, "Good luck, you'll be fine." But if I'm being honest, it's hard not to get caught up in the pervasive anxiety of this process.
I'm cheering for you, Emily - it is not easy to decline to participate in the crush of admissions to selective high schools. I work in a public high school, and I wish more parents with privilege would consider our school, rather than automatically thinking that their kid won't get what they need here. (And, as the book in question suggests - maybe what the parents think their kid needs is not actually what they need, or what will make them happy in the long run).
Emily, your son's story reminds me of my own. I showed up the day of testing in 8th grade with nothing but a pencil and a good night's sleep. It all turned out fine. It is definitely hard to not get caught up, and I am glad the interview resonated! It is absolutely hard not to get caught up in the anxiety of the process, 100% agreed and one of the reasons I wrote the book :)
Oh, I love this! This is exactly what college *should* be about - finding yourself, discovery, challenge, creativity - and those things happen inside classrooms but outside them too. What a deeply humane way to approach the late high school and college years.
A lot of my students have been told that what they do in college will shape their whole life. They've been told this in terms of getting good grades, mostly, and taking "productive" extra-curriculars. This leads to so many of my seniors freezing when they think about what comes after college, because they've been led to believe that the choice they make at 21, 22, will define absolutely everything, without room for reorientation and change, forever. And it's not true! How much better if we could all say, you are kind, thoughtful, and self-reflective, and those skills will serve you beautifully no matter how you make an income. How much pressure it would take off my students who have to find a job and fast because they need to support their families; who have caregivers who want to see a particular return on investment; who truly have no clue what they want to do next and need space to figure it out.
I'm ordering this book immediately.
As someone who was a conventional high achiever, got a PhD but left academia, now teaches rabbinical students, and has a neurodivergent toddler whose barometers of success will probably look different than mine and her father's, this was super interesting. One of the challenges we talk about a lot where I work is how to think about assessment when we are not a university, and where the skills to be a good rabbi are not necessarily the same as the skills to be a good rabbinic students. I know that some of my students are going to be amazing rabbis but they are hard to teach, and there are some who are a pleasure to teach but I worry about whether they have the soft skills needed to succeed as rabbis. (Some, of course, are both, and unfortunately there are a few who are neither.) Part of what's interesting about the work I'm doing now is the ways in which is pushes my colleagues and me to think about our students more holistically, rather than only about how they do in each class in a vacuum, and it really challenges and changes the ways I think about what it means to define success in my classroom.
Thank you for this conversation! Yesterday, my colleagues and I spent 4 hours after school reading and discussing personal statements with our students as part of our College App Party (yes, calling it a party does not make it so). It's so exhausting to observe the level of stress and anxiety this process causes. Because we have constant conversations about how there are only 30 name brand colleges, students, parents and teachers miss the reality that the schools with the best social mobility are often schools like CUNY or Cal State LA. With my 10th graders, we do a unit each year about what admissions mean: that it's not necessarily validation of the student, but that students are selected because they fill an institutional need. This is both a liberating and depressing realization.
I have two young adult kids who fell off the autism cliff, hard, after graduation, which for them happened after COVID lockdowns, where they lost a ton of ground.
They tried community college and flunked out; one ended up in inpatient psych care, and we learned after getting neuropsych testing (accessible through our privilege of having good health insurance) that she has autism and ADHD, or AuDHD.
The other was diagnosed with autism at age 11 and was denied much-needed IEPs for years because their grades were too good. The curse of the "high-functioning" person with autism. Their grades and faith in the educational system slid off and they started failing classes and ended up with a GED. Today, at 21, and no one will hire them, not even McDonald's.
Testing shows they're incredibly intelligent--smarter than 95% of the general population--but they could not even begin to function in this sort of academic framework being described here. I will say that we emphasized effort and curiosity over grades and definitely opted out of the race to have our kids get free college or get into the "best" schools out of our own anxiety for them to make it in this world. And that anxiety is valid; it's really, really hard out there for Gen Z with the current cost of living. My oldest has a bachelor's degree and a good marketing job and is living with us to save up to move out.
I find myself bewildered and lost, and pursuing options through our state government job coaching (which does offer them a path back to college or trade school) and social security disability.
I'm sharing this to say that there is an entire world of students who don't even begin to fit into the discussions happening here, and they are definitely not being served--believe me, I fought for it. I'm still fighting for it. And every day I think of the parents who can't fight for it because they're working two jobs, who don't have great insurance, or a great school district like we did, and I just want to cry.
I’ve written and deleted several comments because I can’t quite figure out what I want to say. My daughter is 16 and a junior. I have no ego behind where she goes and have been encouraging at least a gap year and/or community college. She’ll be 17 when school starts if she goes right after HS graduation and I feel like could benefit from some experiences to hone her interests so she enters school more confident about her abilities.
We’ve really tried not to put pressure on our kids around school aside from putting in effort (i.e. effort is more important than grades), but it’s so difficult because grades do matter! I don’t know how to thread the needle between being ok with a failing grade in a hard class she was put in to fit in another class she needed as long as she works hard and also not reinforcing her fears that making a bad grade in this class affects her chances of getting into college or meeting other goals, like getting into National Honor Society.
I was a 17 year old in college at one of those "best of" schools on the other side of the country. I don't think I would have listened to advice about taking a gap year, but I so wish I had. I was able to maintain for a year and a half and then my mental health crashed and burned. I went back to a different school for the next school year and it was so much better for me. I wasn't socially, emotionally or academically prepared. If I'd had 2 out of 3, I might have done better.
Love this discussion and the comments as well! As a “former gifted kid” who did all the “right” things to get into a college (albeit one known for partying as well as academics) and who swiftly told administrators who suggested I apply to Ivy League schools “no,” I WISH I had more time in high school to just be a kid in the early 2010s.
Between homework (and there was tons of it), extracurriculars that we were told would be the ticket into college since grades and test scores weren’t enough, jobs, and trying to have a social life, I was exhausted all the time. It didn’t help that school started at 7:20am.
As a result, I feel I have very little handle on what actually makes *me* happy and what’s important to me. All that has been programmed out in place of what my family, community and institutions think of as right. At 27, I’m just starting to look around and see if what I’m doing (after graduating with a dual Bachelors and working in a field that was picked at 18) is actually making myself happy and if I’m accomplishing what’s important to me.
The answer right now seems to be a resounding no but I’m hoping to change that over the next few years.
I relate to this a lot, especially the whole “college is everything” vibe, I wish I took a gap year, but I didn’t feel like I needed one. I think I got more flexibility in college in terms of “should” but I also haven’t received as much pressure from parents compared to from peers, teachers, etc. I think the best job I’ve had since college, in terms of feeling like it both challenged and rewarded me, and balanced with the rest of my life, was serving and managing at a high end restaurant. I don’t miss the late hours, or cranky customers, but I miss working <30 hours a week for about what I get paid now, and being able to both be impactful on the clock, and leave work problems behind when I clock out. But that sort of job is a lot less morally virtuous to our society than, say, a law firm, or a consultancy, or something like that.
So many thoughts!! I was a very “high achieving” student, and graduated high school in 2001. As I’ve watched these developments unfold, I’ve always been SO grateful that I was able to do the college thing without all of this pressure. Which isn’t to say there was none: I definitely caught flack from teachers, friends, and guidance counselors in my small rural school district for not applying to any of the Ivies or schools with similar status; I think there was some disappointment about not being able to brag on me as a super-successful student? But I just applied to one school, Ohio State, which was out of state but had a few very appealing features (in addition to being my parents’ alma mater): an *amazing* scholarship (including full tuition plus a housing stipend!) for out of state National Merit Scholars students who listed them as “first choice” (which I had), automatic acceptance into the Honors program for ACT scores over 34 (mine was), and an excellent linguistics department (my intended major). I had a great experience there, and met my husband!
I went on to grad school at the highly-selective private institution where I now teach, and have seen firsthand just how much of a pressure-cooker this competitive environment is. And we’re now raising our neurodivergent almost 12yo in a school district that prides itself on how “well-prepared” their students are for selective colleges. We’ve been trying to make sure we talk a lot about how great community college is, because it’s so obvious that she’s gonna get nothing but “go to the best possible 4 year college!” from her school, and maybe that will turn out to be both possible and desirable to her, but it’s so important to us that she not feel like a failure if her path looks different.
(I also think about how much I was expected to go to graduate school...both my parents have graduate degrees...and while I love the work I now do as a 1st-year writing professor, I also am just so deeply sad for my past self, for whom earning a PhD just felt like an “of course” that wasn’t worth celebrating - and no one in my family
DID celebrate it. I’m so conscious of how expecting something of someone can rob them of a sense of joy and accomplishment when they do it.)
A few thoughts from a Canadian academic advisor of 13 years/therapist-in-training:
We don't have even close to the same rigorous, competitive admissions processes here in Canada. In fact, there are many schools that still admit based solely on a student's grade 12 marks - no qualitative measures at all. Sure, we have schools that are considered more elite than others that demand higher admissions averages than others, but the sense of competition and the stress placed on high school students is not nearly what I see in our neighbours to the south. And yet, I have seen this exact same evolution in our students. They are outcome-focused and extrinsically motivated. They lack executive function and critical thinking skills, and they don't pause to consider the metacognitive factors that might be contributing to their academic challenges.
I have long considered all of the above an effect of the scarcity mindset that's characteristic of so many of us in the post-Great Recession era. I went to one of those "elite" schools whose name appears on lots of "best in the world" lists. And yeah, I went as a former gifted kid who never had to apply herself and I have spent a lot of my adulthood grappling with the lessons I missed out on as a result, but I went to university and did a liberal arts degree in the early 2000s for the love of learning. So did almost all my friends. I don't think the kids these days have that luxury as they look out on a world with ridiculous housing costs, wages that haven't kept up with inflation, and an ever-quickening climate crisis. To them, it truly feels like they need to have their life figured out ASAP, and they believe, rightfully or wrongfully, that getting into the "best" school (instead of the school that's the best fit for them) is the answer. Unfortunately, when they get on campus, they are often lacking the skills to excel in academically demanding programs, and that can lead to poor mental health outcomes and identity foreclosure.
It's heartening to read about the central points of Ana's book. I am hopeful that we can shift the conversation with middle and high school students and place their focus on cultivating skills that will help them be good learners and actually enjoy the learning process. I love the emphasis on the engaged university student and this is something I'm going to come back to in my work with this demographic.
What a great discussion. The world has changed and sometimes we have a hard time keeping up with that change. I too was "enormously lucky'. Here is why. I am a first gen college student. My parents had no idea how to guide me. I had no support from high school counselors. I wasn't a high achieving student, so I wasn't on their radar. My parents wanted us to go to college, so my father said he would pay if I went to the local state school. Done.
That opened up the world to me. I was able to test things out, discover new ways of thinking, fail, succeed and flourish. I was able to study abroad which opened other doors to me. Without that I don't know where I would be. Yet I am in a wonderful place and am still able to grow and succeed.
In today's college market. I might end up where I did anyway. The one thing schools offer now, that they didn't is guidance. Their student body is their success, so they have to help these students. I volunteer through my alumni associations and that gives me a view into how they work with incoming students. It is remarkable.
First of all: I deeply appreciate your compassionate and contextual approach to helping students, Ana. The world would be better off if more people whose job it is to guide students were like you!
Second, It's going WAY back in time, but some really good background context of how college admissions even started being a thing can be found in the podcast Gatecrashers about Jews in the Ivy League.
I highly recommend the whole thing, but if I recall correctly, it's episodes 1 and 4 that really dig into the way that the foundation of the modern admissions system (legacy admissions, prioritizing out of state students, etc.) got started. No surprise that it was a way of keeping out undesirables.
https://www.tabletmag.com/podcasts/gatecrashers/episode-1-columbia-forgotten-jewish-campus-seth-low-junior-college
https://www.tabletmag.com/podcasts/gatecrashers/episode-4-yale-university-jewish-quotas-ivy-league
Another thing that the show does well is say just why Jewish students in the first half of the 20th century and Asian-American students in the second half were such a disproportionate part of the student body--it basically comes down to immigrant striving and a desire for the first generation of American-born kids to prove themselves and "make it" in a new country.
Caddy, thank you so much for your kind words. And for sharing these resources. I look forward to digging in :)
Have you read The Chosen? Such a good book about the history of admissions.
I was like, "The Potok novel?"
But no, I haven't heard of that one, and now I will have to seek it out. Thank you for the recommendation!