My family’s visiting this week and as much as I know I don’t have to clean (and will certainly not clean to perfection) there’s still the compulsion to do so. (For my eternally cycling thoughts on the subject of house cleaning, I’m still pretty much where I was back when I wrote “
I love this. I’m not in either category but my god do we need to normalize talking about these kinds of situations and decisions that have been deemed NSFPC (not safe for public consumption. I just made it up 🤷🏽♀️) Postpartum depression, anxiety, and psychosis. The recalibration any relationship goes through after having children or bringing children into the family, even if it was strong and healthy before. Losing a pet who was truly your best friend and companion and grieving them. Deciding whether or not to cut off communication with a family member or friend. Admittedly those are all examples from my life, but there are many more. Culture Study is one of the only places that I’ve found that constantly broaches these topics and opens space for thoughtful reflection and discussion. Thank you AHP for creating this space!
"sometimes, when the foundation itself is crumbling, and the beams are collapsing, and you’re keeping the entire structure in tact yourself — you need someone to tell you it doesn’t have to be this way." I want to echo these words of wisdom. I was visiting a friend in the US one summer and going through my lengthy list of complaints about my marriage when she suddenly interrupted me. "If it's that bad, why don't you leave?" Because it had never occurred to me. Because I thought I had to stay with my husband forever. Because, because, because. Thank goodness my friend asked that question. That question led, eventually, to a much better life.
I just wanted to come in and say that I wish my mom would have had this opportunity four decades ago. She is very much a part of the “stay together for the kids” generation, and that wasn’t good for any of us. She did not see how she could survive, since her livelihood was tied up with my Dad (they worked together too, also bad for her). Grateful there is a place for people to talk about this, and get support from others with lived experience. Thank you!
What a fantastic resource! My friends are just now getting married (early 30s), so all of the “should I stay or should I go?” conversations of our 20s never had the added weight of legal separation.
I just want to drop in and say that as a child of divorce, it was the best thing that could have happened. If anyone is wrestling with staying for the kids, don’t forget to factor in how important it is for a child to see joy and a healthy relationship. My parents were unhappy and my mother was mentally unstable. I got a stable, thriving home with my dad and later my step-mom and half-sister because of their divorce. I wouldn’t be who I am or have my beautiful life without that hard decision.
Divorced 6 years ago with teen kids, and what is so critical for me is that my ex and I can now model the relationship that we want to have for our kids. One of mutual respect and compromise, which we couldn't do while we were together with years of built up resentment. We can focus on the kids without our interpersonal issues getting in the way. It's not perfect or always rosy but lightyears ahead of where we were pre-divorce. Our collaborative divorce cost a fortune and no court was involved other than filing, but the best thing that our lawyers told us was that we will always be a family.
I will read the Q&A with great interest...thank you for creating the forum.
I also often find myself curious to hear from happily married/partnered people about what makes their relationship successful. Like, I *think* my spouse and I are doing OK. But we still get in the occasional screaming match. Is that normal? What the hell is normal? What's the correct ratio of struggle vs. happy? Agh.
I’ve been reading “How to Keep House While Drowning” (highly recommend, especially if you’re neurodivergent) and I want to tattoo so many of the lines on myself so I’ll never forget them. “Cleanliness is morally neutral” could also apply to finances and food and so many other things.
“It will be on the mother who chose to blow up her family’s lives.”
So many upper middle class lifestyles depend on there being two adults. Divorce upends that class status because the split causes a shift, either in the labor or income required to produce upper middle class status.
Patriarchy would always want the fault for failure of such a structure to fall on the woman. Or in other words: of course it’s the mother’s choice, rather than, as Black pointed out in her tweet, a woman’s right to be free from the ways in marriage often perpetuates patriarchy. So much great food for thought here about the life I want to live, the supports I believe should exist in the world, & the choices I want everyone to have.
As a divorced person, I clicked SO FAST on that link to volunteer my services. Divorce is hard enough without the shame, and I really wish it was talked about more openly and honestly, and neutrally or even positively!
Excellent! I just submitted a question. I'm most curious about the financial dollar costs of divorce and how marital debt gets resolved when it is mostly under one partner.
I was listening to a David Sedaris story from his "Happy go lucky" collection. He mused briefly on how he couldn't fathom why people get divorced these days. He asked rhetorically "Was one of them cheating? No! So what's the problem?"
I was infuriated--but also fascinated at how obdurate the white male view is even when it has the benefit of seeing how privilege falls unevenly across our social/civil institutions like marriage.
As a man whose parents probably should never have married--but as a man who still benefits even from the limited years my parents set up the briefly/almost-accidentally stable but always creaky facade of a family--I am just horrified. Horrified, but hopeful that my two kids will at minimum not experience and not contribute to the same terrible inequities. That hope entails a strong appreciation of the journalism and research here.
I love this! When I got divorced 5 yrs ago, I knew *no one* in my circle of friends or even distant acquaintances who had gone through a divorce with kids. I was so desperate for someone who had been through it to tell me that things were going to be ok. Now, 5 yrs later, I've been honored to be that resource to multiple friends who have now gone through divorce too.
Thank you, Anne, for creating this space that cracks open topics and allows space to share!
Great idea for a thread & support mechanism. I wish I'd had something like this when my separation & divorce kicked off. I had a couple of people in my life who were very supportive, but several more who were the opposite of supportive, and having a forum like this one--esp offering anonymity--would have been a big boon to me. Thanks, AHP, good on you.
Thank you for talking about this. Somehow why do I feel like being divorced is more stigmatized now than when my parents got divorced 25 years ago? Being the child of divorced parents was a good warning to pick my serious partners carefully. My mom also said she delayed divorce so as to provide me a stable childhood home for longer, and I can tell you that while I’m sure that had some positive effects, the negative effects of being around a deeply unhappy mother was also significant.
Also, your line “you need someone to tell you it doesn’t have to be this way” is also so broadly applicable. I have a longtime theory about friends in bad relationships that sounds similar: sometimes you need someone to tell you that this looks bad from their perspective, even if the you in that moment gets defensive or isn’t ready to hear it. Later, if they also have that thought, they’ll have the validation that they weren’t the only one who thinks this is bad. So far, it’s panned out for me - but I’ve definitely gotten yelled at a few times.
I love this. I’m not in either category but my god do we need to normalize talking about these kinds of situations and decisions that have been deemed NSFPC (not safe for public consumption. I just made it up 🤷🏽♀️) Postpartum depression, anxiety, and psychosis. The recalibration any relationship goes through after having children or bringing children into the family, even if it was strong and healthy before. Losing a pet who was truly your best friend and companion and grieving them. Deciding whether or not to cut off communication with a family member or friend. Admittedly those are all examples from my life, but there are many more. Culture Study is one of the only places that I’ve found that constantly broaches these topics and opens space for thoughtful reflection and discussion. Thank you AHP for creating this space!
"sometimes, when the foundation itself is crumbling, and the beams are collapsing, and you’re keeping the entire structure in tact yourself — you need someone to tell you it doesn’t have to be this way." I want to echo these words of wisdom. I was visiting a friend in the US one summer and going through my lengthy list of complaints about my marriage when she suddenly interrupted me. "If it's that bad, why don't you leave?" Because it had never occurred to me. Because I thought I had to stay with my husband forever. Because, because, because. Thank goodness my friend asked that question. That question led, eventually, to a much better life.
I just wanted to come in and say that I wish my mom would have had this opportunity four decades ago. She is very much a part of the “stay together for the kids” generation, and that wasn’t good for any of us. She did not see how she could survive, since her livelihood was tied up with my Dad (they worked together too, also bad for her). Grateful there is a place for people to talk about this, and get support from others with lived experience. Thank you!
What a fantastic resource! My friends are just now getting married (early 30s), so all of the “should I stay or should I go?” conversations of our 20s never had the added weight of legal separation.
I just want to drop in and say that as a child of divorce, it was the best thing that could have happened. If anyone is wrestling with staying for the kids, don’t forget to factor in how important it is for a child to see joy and a healthy relationship. My parents were unhappy and my mother was mentally unstable. I got a stable, thriving home with my dad and later my step-mom and half-sister because of their divorce. I wouldn’t be who I am or have my beautiful life without that hard decision.
Divorced 6 years ago with teen kids, and what is so critical for me is that my ex and I can now model the relationship that we want to have for our kids. One of mutual respect and compromise, which we couldn't do while we were together with years of built up resentment. We can focus on the kids without our interpersonal issues getting in the way. It's not perfect or always rosy but lightyears ahead of where we were pre-divorce. Our collaborative divorce cost a fortune and no court was involved other than filing, but the best thing that our lawyers told us was that we will always be a family.
I will read the Q&A with great interest...thank you for creating the forum.
I also often find myself curious to hear from happily married/partnered people about what makes their relationship successful. Like, I *think* my spouse and I are doing OK. But we still get in the occasional screaming match. Is that normal? What the hell is normal? What's the correct ratio of struggle vs. happy? Agh.
I’ve been reading “How to Keep House While Drowning” (highly recommend, especially if you’re neurodivergent) and I want to tattoo so many of the lines on myself so I’ll never forget them. “Cleanliness is morally neutral” could also apply to finances and food and so many other things.
“It will be on the mother who chose to blow up her family’s lives.”
So many upper middle class lifestyles depend on there being two adults. Divorce upends that class status because the split causes a shift, either in the labor or income required to produce upper middle class status.
Patriarchy would always want the fault for failure of such a structure to fall on the woman. Or in other words: of course it’s the mother’s choice, rather than, as Black pointed out in her tweet, a woman’s right to be free from the ways in marriage often perpetuates patriarchy. So much great food for thought here about the life I want to live, the supports I believe should exist in the world, & the choices I want everyone to have.
As a divorced person, I clicked SO FAST on that link to volunteer my services. Divorce is hard enough without the shame, and I really wish it was talked about more openly and honestly, and neutrally or even positively!
Excellent! I just submitted a question. I'm most curious about the financial dollar costs of divorce and how marital debt gets resolved when it is mostly under one partner.
I was listening to a David Sedaris story from his "Happy go lucky" collection. He mused briefly on how he couldn't fathom why people get divorced these days. He asked rhetorically "Was one of them cheating? No! So what's the problem?"
I was infuriated--but also fascinated at how obdurate the white male view is even when it has the benefit of seeing how privilege falls unevenly across our social/civil institutions like marriage.
As a man whose parents probably should never have married--but as a man who still benefits even from the limited years my parents set up the briefly/almost-accidentally stable but always creaky facade of a family--I am just horrified. Horrified, but hopeful that my two kids will at minimum not experience and not contribute to the same terrible inequities. That hope entails a strong appreciation of the journalism and research here.
Thank you.
I wasn't married, but ending my 9 year partnership inspired two friends to get divorced, so I'm all for this!
I love this! When I got divorced 5 yrs ago, I knew *no one* in my circle of friends or even distant acquaintances who had gone through a divorce with kids. I was so desperate for someone who had been through it to tell me that things were going to be ok. Now, 5 yrs later, I've been honored to be that resource to multiple friends who have now gone through divorce too.
Thank you, Anne, for creating this space that cracks open topics and allows space to share!
Great idea for a thread & support mechanism. I wish I'd had something like this when my separation & divorce kicked off. I had a couple of people in my life who were very supportive, but several more who were the opposite of supportive, and having a forum like this one--esp offering anonymity--would have been a big boon to me. Thanks, AHP, good on you.
Thank you for talking about this. Somehow why do I feel like being divorced is more stigmatized now than when my parents got divorced 25 years ago? Being the child of divorced parents was a good warning to pick my serious partners carefully. My mom also said she delayed divorce so as to provide me a stable childhood home for longer, and I can tell you that while I’m sure that had some positive effects, the negative effects of being around a deeply unhappy mother was also significant.
Also, your line “you need someone to tell you it doesn’t have to be this way” is also so broadly applicable. I have a longtime theory about friends in bad relationships that sounds similar: sometimes you need someone to tell you that this looks bad from their perspective, even if the you in that moment gets defensive or isn’t ready to hear it. Later, if they also have that thought, they’ll have the validation that they weren’t the only one who thinks this is bad. So far, it’s panned out for me - but I’ve definitely gotten yelled at a few times.