Thanks for this awesome interview, and for introducing me to Patrick Wyman!
I don't think feeling a sense of confidence and actualization through weightlifting should be radical for a woman, but it still really, really is. Everyday learned sexism ensures that women are scared of touching weights, and very real, very blatant, targeted sexism and harassment ensures that woman are marginalized in many weightlifting spaces. But it doesn't have to be that way, and it is slowly changing.
I hate that Bro culture 'owns' weightlifting, because I know it could be so fulfilling and helpful to so many people, especially women. And in discussions like this one, I see the nuance get lost and all of sudden 'weightlifting' is synonymous with bro culture, and not something that could be understood on its own terms as a phenomenally useful tool for any body, not just a young white man's.
Patrick's interview resonated really strongly with me because I am a woman who loves to lift weights and work out. Until recently, the gym I work for was a CrossFit affiliate, but Greg Glassman's BS in the late spring was the last nail in the coffin, and we de-affiliated (along with every other CrossFit in DC. We are all now independent gyms offering the same type of programming.) I'd love to have Patrick's perspective on this shift, which I think is similar nation-wide in big cities. My observation is that city CFs de-affiliated in droves and are now forging ahead independently, while rural and suburban CFs are mostly sticking with CrossFit HQ and the brand.
CrossFit culture was founded on Patrick's definition of Bro Culture, and if definitely spread far and fast because it appealed to that demographic. A prime example: "Hero" workouts named for Veterans with a capitol "V" (but almost never, somehow, veterans who are women or people of color).
But, and this is a huge 'but', I find myself trying to articulate all the time that the methodology of weightlifting and high intensity interval training is in fact pretty great, when coached well by someone who cares. And many gyms, especially those in big cities, were smart enough to attempt to reject the worst parts of Bro Culture in favor of conscientious community building. I say 'attempt' because it's clear that we have a long way to go. Most boutique gyms are heavily white and prohibitively expensive, and that won't be fixed by de-affiliating from CrossFit.
I guess what I came here to say is I wish the entire concept of 'weightlifting', and exercise itself, wasn't painted with such a broad brush as Bro-y and exclusionary. Exercise is for everyone, and lots of ways to exercise are free. Weightlifting can certainly be for everyone who is interested, and it doesn't have to cost a lot. All you need is a membership at your local Y, or a couple dumbbells at home, and some instruction by someone who cares. I think that people intuitively understand this, but I can't tell you how many men and women tell me how intimidated they are of any sort of weightlifting because they don't want to be in the room with big grunting bro-y bros talking about their protein shakes.
I get it, that trepidation is real. I still deal with it in some spaces. But the payoff of pursuing weightlifting for me personally has been so monumental, and certainly worth pushing through that fear and finding a welcoming gym with a supportive group of folks. Just as Patrick says he doesn't know what his adult body would look like without weightlifting, I honestly do not know what my life would look like without the confidence and self-actualization that i've gained through weightlifting and sport. It has been life-changing to re-align my self-worth, as a woman, from what I look like, to what I am capable of. And I don't mean that in the sense of value based on achievement, like an ever-escalating deadlift PR. I mean arriving at a place where I can spend some time each day marveling at this awesome body that I own, that is capable of doing all kinds of things that I enjoy.
I want to shout it from the mountain tops, "I want to see more women and people of color in the gym! I'll help you! I'm nice! Just ask me!" If we get enough of us together into the space, it won't be so intimidating anymore. You might know more than one woman who lifts weights for fun, and she won't be the weird, scary lady (I could write a whole thesis on that alone.) Anyway, thanks for the great piece!
I love this comment, thank you. I used to spend a ton of time in gyms and I love lifting weights. Then I got out of it (long story) and when I wanted to get my health back together I found I just didn't want to deal with all the muscle pain and gym culture and "What's your bench, dude?" and all of it ... and this was at the YMCA! So I took up yoga ... Bikram yoga to be exact. A practice with its own set of baggage; arguments concerning the cultural appropriation by the West, not a lot of fat middle-aged men like me practicing, and a problematic founder whose criminal bullshit led to pretty much everyone disassociating themselves from him. Yoga studios are another place that intimidate people. Hell, I've been put off by particularly hardass instructors, feared judgment from people who are "better at it" than I am, all of those same confidence challenges that keep people out of the weight room.
But I must say that in my yoga studio I found a community more friendly and welcoming than any I'd ever encountered in my years in any other athletic endeavor. Some of the most important people in my life are people I met via this studio.
My point isn't to argue what you are saying about lifting weights, it's to back up your main point about exercise; particularly difficult exercise. I still love doing bodyweight exercises and go back into the gym usually in the winter (though not this one). The truth is exercise is wonderful; yoga literally changed my life, and being pushed out of the studio by Covid has been an excruciating hardship. But tonight this quote really hit home with me: "I mean arriving at a place where I can spend some time each day marveling at this awesome body that I own, that is capable of doing all kinds of things that I enjoy." There have been times I've been on my mat, sweaty, heart pounding, when I've marveled at the magnificence of the gift of this wondrous machine, and I promise that I will take better care of it, because of all the things I love to do that I count on it being there for me. Thank you for reminding me of these moments. We are all marvels.
(so sayeth the guy who just had cookies for dinner)
Love this, Chris. I got really into yoga (Iyengar, not Bikram) when we lived in New York, and so much of what you're saying here makes my experience there fall into place. I loved the teacher, a very down-to-earth guy from Colorado who'd moved to India (where he started seriously learning yoga) when he was 16 not because he wanted to find himself but because his dad was a mathematics professor and had a sabbatical. I loved the way he taught, very skilled but very chill. But the rest of the people in the class were all upper-middle-class white women who took themselves and yoga very seriously and I never felt, or wanted to feel, part of the community they had together. It's amazing what a different it makes to have a good teacher and a compatible group of people.
And appreciating and taking care of our bodies. Sometimes yoga is what keeps me from opening an extra beer at night ;)
I grew up doing Aikijujutsu. Verrrry traditional Aikijujutsu. We only speak Japanese here, Aikijujutsu.
Two grafts from the same tree are taken, one is Brazilian Jujutsu, the other Aikido.
Aikijujutsu only teaches from the defensive point of view. It comes from war, real war. But the point is if you stay calm, you make better decisions, so practice making good decisions.
Aikido keeps this at its core, but modifies it abit. Aikido isn't about fighting anyone at all, it's about learning to take care of yourself, and cultivate a compassion for everything you see. You can use it to take care of yourself in a fight, but if during that fight you can see your opponent, you still need to have compassion. I don't need to break your arm, I just need to make it hurt enough that you stop.
BJJ is unique among Japanese martial arts. Yes, though it is from Brazil, it is in fact a Japanese martial art. It was brought by a Japanese person, and it uses the same information, just applied it in a way condusive to Brazil.
It is the only Japanese martial art that ihas parts taught from an offensive point of view. Which is why it is popular amongst MMA folks, who tend to have the Bro mentality. They also are famous in martial arts circles for saying Aikido and the parent of both, doesn't work. They are often surprised when they find out the hard way, yes it does.
I was at a conference 6 or 7 years ago in France when a debate sparked up between to panelists, both rather respected. One from MMA and one from Aikido.
A Yogi from Sri Lanka raised his hand and requested permission to ask three questions. Request was given.
He asks both senseis, "How many black belts have you graduated?". Both teachers say basically "More then I can remember".
"How many students of yours have competitive titles?"
MMA: At least 30
He took a great deal of pride in this, as well he should.
Aikido: None
No real emotional reaction.
Yogi: "How many of your students have been to, or are in jail?"
Aikido: None
Same emotional response.
MMA: never said anything.
First he shrank, kind of ashamed, then he got mad, then he got up and left.
My point is most people at some point stop the Bro culture, because it is taxing. As you said, great for muscles, bad for joints, it wears on the mind. But there's a time and place for it, and no more. You can't be a bro with your wife, they don't like that. Your boss won't be your boss anymore if don't enough it with them. If you see your 8 year old son being a bro you pull him out of whatever he's doing and tell him that's not cool. Bro culture doesn't fit if you're not a Bro, and there's lots of ways to not be a bro.
Yoga, like Aikido, is a physical activity, but is less about physicality, and more about cultivating self control and a sense of calm. Something that fits in all people's lives all the time. Young or old, skinny or ripped, in the gym or at work or at home or Walmart or the bar etc.....
And it shows. Just like a yoga, when you visit an Aikido Dojo, you meet the nicest people.
This video features a father and son. The some in his early 30's. He's young, and I good shape.
The father is 68 years old. That's not as old now as it used to be, but you don't see many 68 year olds at the gym no matter when you went.
This is so thoughtful and such a great addition to this excellent interview. As someone who has gotten into weights at the equivalent of our local Y (a council leisure centre here in London), it's all about pursuing my own long-term goals of being able to carry my groceries when I'm a little old lady, as opposed to seeking a community, identity, or (as they say here in the UK) having some "bants" with other weightlifters.
There's a great class at my local gym that's kind of based on HIIT but isn't that. It's an hour of squats, lunges, push-ups, and crunches with a lot in between and constant use of hand weights throughout. I realize it's not weight lifting in the same way you're talking about but it's interesting to me that it's taught by a woman who leaves everyone in the dust, including the male regular attendees who compete in Spartan races. An equalizer? I don't know, but it seems to help that nobody in there can keep up with her through the entire hour so it's a weird kind of non-communication bonding when you attend regularly (or when I did pre-pandemic). And it's definitely strength training that I've come to rely on to feel both good and capable!
I love all of the ways in which everyone in this thread is describing the motivating rush of exercising, "feel both good and capable" is totally it, like "my mind and body are alive!" :)
The bro culture things is so difficult to deal with as a guy who is both well read, well educated, and in to activities that include a lot of bros. It has reached a point where I have had no choice but to move on from certain things because I simply do not fit in with the people who dominate those spaces.
For example, I got in to playing hockey in college because I went to a sort of nerdy tech school so the people I played hockey with were this weird mix of intellectual and bro. It was a great fit socially. I could unleash my inner bro in a place where the culture was more diverse and less aggressively stupid.
Trying to maintain a hobby like hockey a decade removed from that space has been difficult and borderline impossible, because so much of my dedication to that activity was my dedication to the people I was playing with. They were my friends, people I spent a lot of time with. We bro'd out, but in a very specific way.
Now, in my mid-thirties, I am struggling to fit in. The people who dominate these spaces are not people I want to be friends with. I'm not going to the bar with them after a game. It's a chore to drag myself to the rink to play with people I really don't like that much just to get some exercise. When I hurt my knee back in January I was actually relieved. Then the pandemic happened and the leagues shut down, and I was more relieved.
Will I play again some day? I hope so. But I'm going to need to find the right people. In the mean time, I have moved my energy in to other things where I fit better socially.
And I think that's what makes bro culture so powerful. There are a lot of guys out there from the same backgrounds (white, middle class) who are all looking for an identity because as they've gotten older they're finding out they don't really have one. So the lost boys head to the gym where they find an identity in their mutual lack of one. And when the gyms closed because of the pandemic, it was like taking their entire personality away from them.
Thank you. Turns out getting older has its challenges!
I have always been somewhat of a chameleon. I can blend in to all sorts of social environments with little difficulty. But it has become more challenging over the years because it turns out developing stronger convictions, having more concrete politics, and knowing what you do/do not like in other people tends to create barriers that didn't exist before. I'm no longer one of those people who can just "get along with anyone" and I've decided that isn't a particularly bad thing.
The silver lining is that it has been the catalyst that has set me looking for new activities and social groups that contain people I can get along with more easily, even if those people don't necessarily turn in to actual friends.
It does for all of us! I'd give a lot for younger knees right now.
I think I know what you mean. One of the things I've struggled with over the past few months is feeling like my empathy is eroding. Like you, I'm not sure my ability to get along with anyone is going to survive for much longer. But it's a hopeful thing to read that that shift can be a catalyst, though I worry about what feels like brittle empathy--not only does that significantly change who I am, but what if it's also happening to people I have deep disagreements with? What if we *all* have less empathy to lean on? I don't like thinking about it. Which circles back to the hopefulness in your idea of a shift being a catalyst to look for new activities and people and connections ...
I think for me it's also part of a larger process of figuring out what my priorities are, what my values are, what my goals are as a real-ass adult.
If I want to get in better shape, is constantly hurting my knees playing hockey a part of an effective system of achieving that goal? Probably not...
I want to be more creative (something I did a lot more of when I was younger and found a lot of pleasure in), is playing D&D with my friends and spending more time learning photography effective in helping me meet that goal? That's a yes.
So I would say there are other motives besides wanting to fit in driving these changes too. The pandemic really gave me a lot of time for introspection, and it turns out there were a lot of questions I needed to be asking myself that weren't being asked.
I was literally just listening to an episode of Tides of History and couldn’t remember where I’d heard about it. Thank you both for bringing such important and well-told ideas to a bigger conversation.
Ever since reading the bro culture piece and adding it to my worries about anti-government extremism here in the inland Northwest, I’ve been wondering: how do communities like mine survive this culture? How do we raise our children in it? To raise a son to be vulnerable and himself but be able to exist and survive and communicate in places where bro culture dominates? I wonder how many other parents know this is out there and how,it will affect the coming generation.
GREAT point about the wars and returning veterans. I don’t see how we expect young people to keep coming home from imperial wars decade after decade and have it not affect the whole society.
That's a good reminder about parents and influences (and a reminder to myself not to panic!). I was born in Montana in 1976, grew up here, and am now raising my kids here, so I know what you mean about being around the culture but not *of* it. I guess it just seems like . . . more? Like, I remember having kids whose parents trucked with Aryan Nation and so on in my high school classes, but after Waco and Ruby Ridge (and losing the ban on assault weapons) it's grown so much and become more serious. And yeah, is weirdly in a feedback loop with this anti-collective action ideology.
My sister was in the Reserves and it seemed like her entire battalion was the opposite of Bro Culture, though I haven't asked her much about their lives after they came back from Iraq (she wasn't deployed due to pregnancy). I wonder if there's more to read about this--being in the military isn't an indication of later ideology.
The first time I thought about an American parallel was protesting the Iraq War in NYC in 2003, when I saw a protest sign that said "Even Rome Fell". But, whew, this year, 2020, this fucking year is when I *really* couldn't stop thinking about the fall of Rome. (Stoned, in April, texting my girlfriends "Hey, what do you think it was like to *actually* live through the fall of Rome"). Anyway, we're now reading SPQR by Mary Beard in our book club, but I wasn't familiar with Patrick Wyman. Thanks for the introduction! Subscribed!
His thoughts on this specific type of Bro Culture were so On Point! Wow. I'm a woman who loves powerlifting and I switched to a woman-owned gym the past few years because of the exclusionary nature of Bro Culture. That exclusion vibe is, I think, a feature and not an accident of Bro Culture and this interview helped me crystallize why that might be and how it's linked to American and our increasing global political isolation.
Really enjoyed the interview. The “academic magpie” comment stood out to me. It’s so bizarre for K-12 and even secondary schooling to [claim to] value multidisciplinary, critical thinking then punish you for it in post-secondary academia. Sorry, you can’t put the systems-genie back in the bottle. Everything is connected. Solidarity to the people.
Thank you for this! I just read Patrick’s piece on Amerocan gentry and was just nodding my head the whole time. I'm from Atlantic Canada and I'm a public accountant in a firm that specialises in mid-size business. These are my clients.
The ”McDonalds” heiress whose father owns 10 McDonald's in Newfoundland. The owner-manager of a construction company in Labrador who builds most of the roads in the area. The potato farmer who owns the second largest potato plant on Prince Edward Island, etc etc. They wield a lot of influence and are heavily involved in local and provincial politics lobbying for their interests. They're also the Candians who own large condos in Arizona and Florida and live there half of the year with McMansions on ocean property. Everyone in the small town knows who they are.
I have subscribed to his newsletter and look forward to more interviews!
Can't wait to read. True story - back in 2016 I got overwhelmed by the trajectory of the US, and wanted a listen that was NOT all about current events. That's when I discovered Tides and FOR! It was so damn soothing to hear about other empire's problems lol and escape a little bit.
Stopped reading by the time I got to "white people being forced to see themselves as white..." These people want to dehumanize me by categorizing me. Over it.
I'm not sure exactly what he's proving? Are we right to categorize humans by a single characteristic? The Jew? The Gay? The Gypsy? This type of categorization was codified once, in 1935. I think we all know how it ended.
Thank you for this interview, and for the links to Patrick Wyman pieces. The Bro Culture post was a great analysis, and I _loved_ the video. When that type of guy has their guard down, their sense of humor is heartening. The American Gentry post, though, is a real eye-opener. The gentry of small and mid-sized towns and cites in the US is a woefully unexamined power base, I think in part because their existence contradicts a myth about equality that we rely on. The story is everyone counts the same. The fact is the owner of things counts more. Our professional political analysis apparatus has no language for this discrepancy, especially at the local level.
Consider that a lot of support for our last president came from the owners of car dealerships, from HVAC contractors, etc. and that almost no attention was paid to that support by analysts who were/are so quick to hang the whole thing on the "working class."
Look at it this way, bro. All of those pointless American wars of imperialism enabled you to to be free to write the drivel you spiel about your perceived decline in the worth of being a citizen of the United States. When you get the urge, shuffle on over to the streets of LA or SanFran and have a gay old time with the folks living on the streets in those decaying crypts of leftist excesses.
Thanks for this awesome interview, and for introducing me to Patrick Wyman!
I don't think feeling a sense of confidence and actualization through weightlifting should be radical for a woman, but it still really, really is. Everyday learned sexism ensures that women are scared of touching weights, and very real, very blatant, targeted sexism and harassment ensures that woman are marginalized in many weightlifting spaces. But it doesn't have to be that way, and it is slowly changing.
I hate that Bro culture 'owns' weightlifting, because I know it could be so fulfilling and helpful to so many people, especially women. And in discussions like this one, I see the nuance get lost and all of sudden 'weightlifting' is synonymous with bro culture, and not something that could be understood on its own terms as a phenomenally useful tool for any body, not just a young white man's.
Patrick's interview resonated really strongly with me because I am a woman who loves to lift weights and work out. Until recently, the gym I work for was a CrossFit affiliate, but Greg Glassman's BS in the late spring was the last nail in the coffin, and we de-affiliated (along with every other CrossFit in DC. We are all now independent gyms offering the same type of programming.) I'd love to have Patrick's perspective on this shift, which I think is similar nation-wide in big cities. My observation is that city CFs de-affiliated in droves and are now forging ahead independently, while rural and suburban CFs are mostly sticking with CrossFit HQ and the brand.
CrossFit culture was founded on Patrick's definition of Bro Culture, and if definitely spread far and fast because it appealed to that demographic. A prime example: "Hero" workouts named for Veterans with a capitol "V" (but almost never, somehow, veterans who are women or people of color).
But, and this is a huge 'but', I find myself trying to articulate all the time that the methodology of weightlifting and high intensity interval training is in fact pretty great, when coached well by someone who cares. And many gyms, especially those in big cities, were smart enough to attempt to reject the worst parts of Bro Culture in favor of conscientious community building. I say 'attempt' because it's clear that we have a long way to go. Most boutique gyms are heavily white and prohibitively expensive, and that won't be fixed by de-affiliating from CrossFit.
I guess what I came here to say is I wish the entire concept of 'weightlifting', and exercise itself, wasn't painted with such a broad brush as Bro-y and exclusionary. Exercise is for everyone, and lots of ways to exercise are free. Weightlifting can certainly be for everyone who is interested, and it doesn't have to cost a lot. All you need is a membership at your local Y, or a couple dumbbells at home, and some instruction by someone who cares. I think that people intuitively understand this, but I can't tell you how many men and women tell me how intimidated they are of any sort of weightlifting because they don't want to be in the room with big grunting bro-y bros talking about their protein shakes.
I get it, that trepidation is real. I still deal with it in some spaces. But the payoff of pursuing weightlifting for me personally has been so monumental, and certainly worth pushing through that fear and finding a welcoming gym with a supportive group of folks. Just as Patrick says he doesn't know what his adult body would look like without weightlifting, I honestly do not know what my life would look like without the confidence and self-actualization that i've gained through weightlifting and sport. It has been life-changing to re-align my self-worth, as a woman, from what I look like, to what I am capable of. And I don't mean that in the sense of value based on achievement, like an ever-escalating deadlift PR. I mean arriving at a place where I can spend some time each day marveling at this awesome body that I own, that is capable of doing all kinds of things that I enjoy.
I want to shout it from the mountain tops, "I want to see more women and people of color in the gym! I'll help you! I'm nice! Just ask me!" If we get enough of us together into the space, it won't be so intimidating anymore. You might know more than one woman who lifts weights for fun, and she won't be the weird, scary lady (I could write a whole thesis on that alone.) Anyway, thanks for the great piece!
I love this comment, thank you. I used to spend a ton of time in gyms and I love lifting weights. Then I got out of it (long story) and when I wanted to get my health back together I found I just didn't want to deal with all the muscle pain and gym culture and "What's your bench, dude?" and all of it ... and this was at the YMCA! So I took up yoga ... Bikram yoga to be exact. A practice with its own set of baggage; arguments concerning the cultural appropriation by the West, not a lot of fat middle-aged men like me practicing, and a problematic founder whose criminal bullshit led to pretty much everyone disassociating themselves from him. Yoga studios are another place that intimidate people. Hell, I've been put off by particularly hardass instructors, feared judgment from people who are "better at it" than I am, all of those same confidence challenges that keep people out of the weight room.
But I must say that in my yoga studio I found a community more friendly and welcoming than any I'd ever encountered in my years in any other athletic endeavor. Some of the most important people in my life are people I met via this studio.
My point isn't to argue what you are saying about lifting weights, it's to back up your main point about exercise; particularly difficult exercise. I still love doing bodyweight exercises and go back into the gym usually in the winter (though not this one). The truth is exercise is wonderful; yoga literally changed my life, and being pushed out of the studio by Covid has been an excruciating hardship. But tonight this quote really hit home with me: "I mean arriving at a place where I can spend some time each day marveling at this awesome body that I own, that is capable of doing all kinds of things that I enjoy." There have been times I've been on my mat, sweaty, heart pounding, when I've marveled at the magnificence of the gift of this wondrous machine, and I promise that I will take better care of it, because of all the things I love to do that I count on it being there for me. Thank you for reminding me of these moments. We are all marvels.
(so sayeth the guy who just had cookies for dinner)
Love this, Chris. I got really into yoga (Iyengar, not Bikram) when we lived in New York, and so much of what you're saying here makes my experience there fall into place. I loved the teacher, a very down-to-earth guy from Colorado who'd moved to India (where he started seriously learning yoga) when he was 16 not because he wanted to find himself but because his dad was a mathematics professor and had a sabbatical. I loved the way he taught, very skilled but very chill. But the rest of the people in the class were all upper-middle-class white women who took themselves and yoga very seriously and I never felt, or wanted to feel, part of the community they had together. It's amazing what a different it makes to have a good teacher and a compatible group of people.
And appreciating and taking care of our bodies. Sometimes yoga is what keeps me from opening an extra beer at night ;)
I grew up doing Aikijujutsu. Verrrry traditional Aikijujutsu. We only speak Japanese here, Aikijujutsu.
Two grafts from the same tree are taken, one is Brazilian Jujutsu, the other Aikido.
Aikijujutsu only teaches from the defensive point of view. It comes from war, real war. But the point is if you stay calm, you make better decisions, so practice making good decisions.
Aikido keeps this at its core, but modifies it abit. Aikido isn't about fighting anyone at all, it's about learning to take care of yourself, and cultivate a compassion for everything you see. You can use it to take care of yourself in a fight, but if during that fight you can see your opponent, you still need to have compassion. I don't need to break your arm, I just need to make it hurt enough that you stop.
BJJ is unique among Japanese martial arts. Yes, though it is from Brazil, it is in fact a Japanese martial art. It was brought by a Japanese person, and it uses the same information, just applied it in a way condusive to Brazil.
It is the only Japanese martial art that ihas parts taught from an offensive point of view. Which is why it is popular amongst MMA folks, who tend to have the Bro mentality. They also are famous in martial arts circles for saying Aikido and the parent of both, doesn't work. They are often surprised when they find out the hard way, yes it does.
I was at a conference 6 or 7 years ago in France when a debate sparked up between to panelists, both rather respected. One from MMA and one from Aikido.
A Yogi from Sri Lanka raised his hand and requested permission to ask three questions. Request was given.
He asks both senseis, "How many black belts have you graduated?". Both teachers say basically "More then I can remember".
"How many students of yours have competitive titles?"
MMA: At least 30
He took a great deal of pride in this, as well he should.
Aikido: None
No real emotional reaction.
Yogi: "How many of your students have been to, or are in jail?"
Aikido: None
Same emotional response.
MMA: never said anything.
First he shrank, kind of ashamed, then he got mad, then he got up and left.
My point is most people at some point stop the Bro culture, because it is taxing. As you said, great for muscles, bad for joints, it wears on the mind. But there's a time and place for it, and no more. You can't be a bro with your wife, they don't like that. Your boss won't be your boss anymore if don't enough it with them. If you see your 8 year old son being a bro you pull him out of whatever he's doing and tell him that's not cool. Bro culture doesn't fit if you're not a Bro, and there's lots of ways to not be a bro.
Yoga, like Aikido, is a physical activity, but is less about physicality, and more about cultivating self control and a sense of calm. Something that fits in all people's lives all the time. Young or old, skinny or ripped, in the gym or at work or at home or Walmart or the bar etc.....
And it shows. Just like a yoga, when you visit an Aikido Dojo, you meet the nicest people.
This video features a father and son. The some in his early 30's. He's young, and I good shape.
The father is 68 years old. That's not as old now as it used to be, but you don't see many 68 year olds at the gym no matter when you went.
https://youtu.be/kOhjG9ClCVk
This is so thoughtful and such a great addition to this excellent interview. As someone who has gotten into weights at the equivalent of our local Y (a council leisure centre here in London), it's all about pursuing my own long-term goals of being able to carry my groceries when I'm a little old lady, as opposed to seeking a community, identity, or (as they say here in the UK) having some "bants" with other weightlifters.
There's a great class at my local gym that's kind of based on HIIT but isn't that. It's an hour of squats, lunges, push-ups, and crunches with a lot in between and constant use of hand weights throughout. I realize it's not weight lifting in the same way you're talking about but it's interesting to me that it's taught by a woman who leaves everyone in the dust, including the male regular attendees who compete in Spartan races. An equalizer? I don't know, but it seems to help that nobody in there can keep up with her through the entire hour so it's a weird kind of non-communication bonding when you attend regularly (or when I did pre-pandemic). And it's definitely strength training that I've come to rely on to feel both good and capable!
I love all of the ways in which everyone in this thread is describing the motivating rush of exercising, "feel both good and capable" is totally it, like "my mind and body are alive!" :)
:)
The bro culture things is so difficult to deal with as a guy who is both well read, well educated, and in to activities that include a lot of bros. It has reached a point where I have had no choice but to move on from certain things because I simply do not fit in with the people who dominate those spaces.
For example, I got in to playing hockey in college because I went to a sort of nerdy tech school so the people I played hockey with were this weird mix of intellectual and bro. It was a great fit socially. I could unleash my inner bro in a place where the culture was more diverse and less aggressively stupid.
Trying to maintain a hobby like hockey a decade removed from that space has been difficult and borderline impossible, because so much of my dedication to that activity was my dedication to the people I was playing with. They were my friends, people I spent a lot of time with. We bro'd out, but in a very specific way.
Now, in my mid-thirties, I am struggling to fit in. The people who dominate these spaces are not people I want to be friends with. I'm not going to the bar with them after a game. It's a chore to drag myself to the rink to play with people I really don't like that much just to get some exercise. When I hurt my knee back in January I was actually relieved. Then the pandemic happened and the leagues shut down, and I was more relieved.
Will I play again some day? I hope so. But I'm going to need to find the right people. In the mean time, I have moved my energy in to other things where I fit better socially.
And I think that's what makes bro culture so powerful. There are a lot of guys out there from the same backgrounds (white, middle class) who are all looking for an identity because as they've gotten older they're finding out they don't really have one. So the lost boys head to the gym where they find an identity in their mutual lack of one. And when the gyms closed because of the pandemic, it was like taking their entire personality away from them.
This was really powerful. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you. Turns out getting older has its challenges!
I have always been somewhat of a chameleon. I can blend in to all sorts of social environments with little difficulty. But it has become more challenging over the years because it turns out developing stronger convictions, having more concrete politics, and knowing what you do/do not like in other people tends to create barriers that didn't exist before. I'm no longer one of those people who can just "get along with anyone" and I've decided that isn't a particularly bad thing.
The silver lining is that it has been the catalyst that has set me looking for new activities and social groups that contain people I can get along with more easily, even if those people don't necessarily turn in to actual friends.
It does for all of us! I'd give a lot for younger knees right now.
I think I know what you mean. One of the things I've struggled with over the past few months is feeling like my empathy is eroding. Like you, I'm not sure my ability to get along with anyone is going to survive for much longer. But it's a hopeful thing to read that that shift can be a catalyst, though I worry about what feels like brittle empathy--not only does that significantly change who I am, but what if it's also happening to people I have deep disagreements with? What if we *all* have less empathy to lean on? I don't like thinking about it. Which circles back to the hopefulness in your idea of a shift being a catalyst to look for new activities and people and connections ...
I think for me it's also part of a larger process of figuring out what my priorities are, what my values are, what my goals are as a real-ass adult.
If I want to get in better shape, is constantly hurting my knees playing hockey a part of an effective system of achieving that goal? Probably not...
I want to be more creative (something I did a lot more of when I was younger and found a lot of pleasure in), is playing D&D with my friends and spending more time learning photography effective in helping me meet that goal? That's a yes.
So I would say there are other motives besides wanting to fit in driving these changes too. The pandemic really gave me a lot of time for introspection, and it turns out there were a lot of questions I needed to be asking myself that weren't being asked.
Well said.
I was literally just listening to an episode of Tides of History and couldn’t remember where I’d heard about it. Thank you both for bringing such important and well-told ideas to a bigger conversation.
Ever since reading the bro culture piece and adding it to my worries about anti-government extremism here in the inland Northwest, I’ve been wondering: how do communities like mine survive this culture? How do we raise our children in it? To raise a son to be vulnerable and himself but be able to exist and survive and communicate in places where bro culture dominates? I wonder how many other parents know this is out there and how,it will affect the coming generation.
GREAT point about the wars and returning veterans. I don’t see how we expect young people to keep coming home from imperial wars decade after decade and have it not affect the whole society.
That's a good reminder about parents and influences (and a reminder to myself not to panic!). I was born in Montana in 1976, grew up here, and am now raising my kids here, so I know what you mean about being around the culture but not *of* it. I guess it just seems like . . . more? Like, I remember having kids whose parents trucked with Aryan Nation and so on in my high school classes, but after Waco and Ruby Ridge (and losing the ban on assault weapons) it's grown so much and become more serious. And yeah, is weirdly in a feedback loop with this anti-collective action ideology.
My sister was in the Reserves and it seemed like her entire battalion was the opposite of Bro Culture, though I haven't asked her much about their lives after they came back from Iraq (she wasn't deployed due to pregnancy). I wonder if there's more to read about this--being in the military isn't an indication of later ideology.
The first time I thought about an American parallel was protesting the Iraq War in NYC in 2003, when I saw a protest sign that said "Even Rome Fell". But, whew, this year, 2020, this fucking year is when I *really* couldn't stop thinking about the fall of Rome. (Stoned, in April, texting my girlfriends "Hey, what do you think it was like to *actually* live through the fall of Rome"). Anyway, we're now reading SPQR by Mary Beard in our book club, but I wasn't familiar with Patrick Wyman. Thanks for the introduction! Subscribed!
His thoughts on this specific type of Bro Culture were so On Point! Wow. I'm a woman who loves powerlifting and I switched to a woman-owned gym the past few years because of the exclusionary nature of Bro Culture. That exclusion vibe is, I think, a feature and not an accident of Bro Culture and this interview helped me crystallize why that might be and how it's linked to American and our increasing global political isolation.
Really enjoyed the interview. The “academic magpie” comment stood out to me. It’s so bizarre for K-12 and even secondary schooling to [claim to] value multidisciplinary, critical thinking then punish you for it in post-secondary academia. Sorry, you can’t put the systems-genie back in the bottle. Everything is connected. Solidarity to the people.
This was riveting and now I am off to read everything else he has written. Thank you for this!
Thank you for this! I just read Patrick’s piece on Amerocan gentry and was just nodding my head the whole time. I'm from Atlantic Canada and I'm a public accountant in a firm that specialises in mid-size business. These are my clients.
The ”McDonalds” heiress whose father owns 10 McDonald's in Newfoundland. The owner-manager of a construction company in Labrador who builds most of the roads in the area. The potato farmer who owns the second largest potato plant on Prince Edward Island, etc etc. They wield a lot of influence and are heavily involved in local and provincial politics lobbying for their interests. They're also the Candians who own large condos in Arizona and Florida and live there half of the year with McMansions on ocean property. Everyone in the small town knows who they are.
I have subscribed to his newsletter and look forward to more interviews!
Can't wait to read. True story - back in 2016 I got overwhelmed by the trajectory of the US, and wanted a listen that was NOT all about current events. That's when I discovered Tides and FOR! It was so damn soothing to hear about other empire's problems lol and escape a little bit.
Thanks for this and for the introduction to Patrick!
Okay this got me to subscribe! History PHD not faculty interested in how people use it and a Tides listener!
Thank you for introducing us to Patrick. First rate questions and a wonderful discussion.
This interview rules, Patricks, and you rule! Thank for this. Holy cow.
Stopped reading by the time I got to "white people being forced to see themselves as white..." These people want to dehumanize me by categorizing me. Over it.
Thank you for proving the point of the essay bro
I'm not sure exactly what he's proving? Are we right to categorize humans by a single characteristic? The Jew? The Gay? The Gypsy? This type of categorization was codified once, in 1935. I think we all know how it ended.
Now you how the rest of us feel. imagine that was your life, and people kill your friends for it.
Thank you for this interview, and for the links to Patrick Wyman pieces. The Bro Culture post was a great analysis, and I _loved_ the video. When that type of guy has their guard down, their sense of humor is heartening. The American Gentry post, though, is a real eye-opener. The gentry of small and mid-sized towns and cites in the US is a woefully unexamined power base, I think in part because their existence contradicts a myth about equality that we rely on. The story is everyone counts the same. The fact is the owner of things counts more. Our professional political analysis apparatus has no language for this discrepancy, especially at the local level.
Consider that a lot of support for our last president came from the owners of car dealerships, from HVAC contractors, etc. and that almost no attention was paid to that support by analysts who were/are so quick to hang the whole thing on the "working class."
I thought Weyman and Tides and Fall of Rome was my own weird nerd thing! Of course you’re into it. This is when the internet isn’t the worst.
Look at it this way, bro. All of those pointless American wars of imperialism enabled you to to be free to write the drivel you spiel about your perceived decline in the worth of being a citizen of the United States. When you get the urge, shuffle on over to the streets of LA or SanFran and have a gay old time with the folks living on the streets in those decaying crypts of leftist excesses.