I'd just like to give a bit of encouragement to people who are trying desperately to build community and finding it slow going. Six years ago I had toddler twins and was pregnant with my third when I needed to go to the hospital. We had no one to call, so I white knuckled it through dinner, we put the kids in PJs, and my husband dropped me at the ER doors and he drove around the metro with two sleeping kids while I got checked out. That incident really threw into sharp relief how isolated our lives were, and with consistent efforts, things are better now. I still don't have the community I desire (why can't I find an in-person book club that will have me?!) but I do have people who will watch my kids in a pinch and who can count on me to do the same. AHP is 100% right, you can't optimize or hack this work, but with time and effort, you can plant seeds and see them grow.
I live north of Minneapolis and in many ways also feel as though I'm still in search of the community I desire! I also have twins + one (my twins are now 10 and the one is now 8) and am an avid bookish person. If you would ever want to connect please reach out. (So long as that's not a totally weird/creepy thing that I'm suggesting over a comment thread, haha.)
Why are people in Minnesota so chilly (pun, there)? I'm in the Boston suburbs. We're supposed to be cold, but our community is really very welcoming to new people.
Sorry catching up to this thread a month later... I am in the Boston suburbs and it is a little bit chilly here. Curious which Boston suburb you have found a more welcoming vibe?
Where are you located? (If it's not weird to ask that as a random person on the internet haha) My in-person book club is mostly moms and looking to grow!
Hi Amy! I am in the Twin Cities and in a fantastic in person book club with several other culture study readers (hi Julia! haha) - we would love to have you! Want to message
me and I'll add you to the email list and you can see if you might be interested? I'm at jacqschweiger at gmail dot com!
Thank you for validating my experience!! My husband and I are both transplants and I sometimes think it would be disproportionately easier if one of us was a local. What little community I had pre-covid was all transplants and we used to joke that "Minnesotans are very friendly but they already have all their friends"
Ugh, not in MN but have and currently live in other parts of the Midwest. Nobody moves away and everyone's roster is already pretty full from their primary school/college friends! I know the quitting thread was recently, but I actually in the past couple of years quit a friend group because it had been almost 5 years and I still wasn't in the group chat. Anyways, just here to commiserate, lol.
@Amy, you're not the first person I've heard this saying this! My mom is from Minnesota, & I still have lots of relatives in the Twin Cities area -- they're a pretty friendly bunch, but then, I'm related to them & I don't live there ;) -- and yeah -- from what I can tell, they all grow up together, go to the same schools, etc., and tend to stick together.
I live in a large suburban area near Toronto -- we moved here 8 years ago to be near family. I still don't really know anyone here aside from family. Same thing: it's a community where the majority is from the same ethnic community (and many of them are related to each other!), many of them (especially the younger ones) grew up here, went to school together (and now their kids go to the same schools together), etc. I don't have those connections. It's a very family-focused community, but I don't have kids, so I don't have that instant connecting point. I'm not part of that ethnic group (just married into it). I did attend a book club for about a year and was just starting to get to get to know people and put names to faces, etc. -- and then along came covid, it shut down and hasn't restated. (sigh)
When many of my friends started having children, a good number of them automatically referred to me as "Auntie Anita" to their children, and it's stuck through the years. I always found it charming, not having any nieces and nephews of my own until much later in my life, but now with the passage of a number of decades, I've come to believe that this decision on my friends' parts had a profound impact on how close their kids feel to me or I feel to them. I'm not suggested that just calling someone "Auntie" is a magic wand that ushers in close feelings, but what I am saying is that it establishes a special relationship and communicates two (or more!) things: for the kids, the message is "Listen up, kiddos! Anita is a valued member of our family who has a relationship with you that has a name." For me, the message is, "Listen up, Anita! We love you and think of you as an aunt to our children." That elevated role kept giving me purchase with certain kids I wouldn't see as often: being Auntie Anita bridges geographies. (And thinking about it, many of the families who used this term were ones that lived at a distance and I didn't see day-to-day.) It also invited me in to live up to that role—in the best way—by feeling I didn't have to earn the role, but it had been automatically bestowed upon me and was mine to honor.
I really love this - I totally agree with you and (as a childless person) have always felt very honored by the "Auntie" title (and, like you said, inspired to live up to it)! I have one friend whose husband feels very strongly that aunt/uncle titles are only for people who are related by blood/marriage, which feels a little stingy to me.
(Although, as a counterpoint, we did not use aunt/uncle titles for the beloved adults who were in my life when I was a kid - and we lived a long distance from and had very limited relationships with our actual extended family - and those relationships still felt special to me. So maybe it can work both ways!)
Oh I definitely agree it can work both ways: I feel very close to kids where I'm simply Anita, a close family friend who has witnessed them growing up and has cheered them on the whole way. And interestingly, I don't refer to my actual aunts and uncles as Uncle X or Aunt Y, it just wasn't the habit on either side of my family, but I have very close relationships with many of them.
I grew up in the kind of family that called everyone by their first names--aunts, uncles, cousins, beloved friends. Heck, my mom called her parents by their first names. So I very much don't think that a title means anything at all to signify closeness. In fact, it was a weird point of pride as a young adult because I felt like all my closeness with my wide variety of aunts was a testament to the strength of our relationship not a "fake" one that was just a title. All that to say, don't let the lack of aunt/uncle title get in the way of having a close relationship with those kiddos--you can develop a special name that only those kids get to use if you like. A title can be a shortcut but it's only as meaningful as you want it to be.
I also grew up in an environment where there was a lot of first name use between generations (an intentional community where it was the norm, and a faith tradition that underscored that kind of egalitarian approach) and I loved the simplicity of shedding any kinds of honorifics. As as I said to Sarah, I agree with you that no title is ever necessary to establish closeness! But reflecting this morning I realized for me words can have influence, and that introducing the title in the cases I've experienced, is one way to invite deeper engagement.
Tip for anybody looking to build a relationship with their friend's young kids who live far away: Send them postcards and letters! Every toddler I know is absolutely wild for mail. It doesn't have to be anything difficult - write one sentence about something you did recently, ask them one question, maybe add a little drawing (even if you're not an artist! A 2 year old does not care!). Add a stamp and you have made that kid's day.
I think sometimes people would like to be the fun aunt/uncle/pibling/etc for their friend's kid but don't know how to get started, especially if they live far away. It can be tempting to think you'll wait until they're older, but I think if you have the opportunity to make that connection earlier, it will be more effective. Also, I think it's easier to be understanding and tolerant of how much your friend's life revolves around their kid if the kid is also special to you too, and any feedback of the "hey, can we find more time for child-free hangouts?" variety is more likely to be well-received when your friend knows for an absolute fact that you do value and enjoy their child.
When my cat-loving son was little my best friend, who lived across the country, sent him books featuring cats “from” her cat. She made an illustration and inscription to him (again, from her cat) in the front covers. Many of the books were used, it didn’t matter! Now that he is older we still cherish those books and the sweetness of reading the inscriptions.
My friend and I live on opposite sides of the country, and I mail her young kid (we started when they were 2.5 or 3, and they're now 6) a postcard every week, like clockwork - it's a very cherished routine for both of us!
I do this with my nieces/nephews and friends' kids! I frequently travel for work and try to always send them something so they at least know that (1) I'm thinking about them and (2) I'm out living my own interesting life. I recently sent a postcard from Crater Lake to a friend's 5-year old kid and she sent a Marco Polo video saying that she now wants to visit the park with me, which warms my childfree auntie heart.
Love this! In the same vein, a plain old paper birthday card goes a long way. Add some stickers for bonus points. Kids always remember the folks who send them a card every year (don't you?!).
My daughter is 2 (+a few months) and my mom just sent her her first piece of mail in this vein - a card with her favorite animal on it, a short message that I read to her, and a sheet of stickers. My kid has now decorated the card and envelope with the stickers and with markers, and it was one of her favorite toys for a few days. I think it was really special for her.
I've been hosting a BYOB (Bring Your Own Bookclub) for a couple years now and it's been awesome. I started it after getting incredibly frustrated at my lack of community and wishing there was something and a friend encouraged me to just do it myself.
Letting people read whatever they want is the biggest thing, I've joined and left a few book clubs over the years. I'm the non-fiction person while others are romance fans; another is into parenting/life coaching books, and so on. We each do a shorter almost book report when we meet up and if we bring physical books optionally let the others borrow them. Sometimes a book will take off and everyone will end up reading it and sometimes it's a bust especially if you hated the book and warn everyone away from it, but all in all it's fun as hell.
This is how I always imagined the The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society book club worked.
Similar in low pressure, but different format, a few friends and I keep a shared book list that we update with initials when we've completed it. Once all three of us have read it we discuss.
Exactly, we share what we liked/disliked, if you think anyone else would like it, and then we all go on tangents like if we liked the author's other books, where we found it (physically at the library, or if it's on the library's ebook shelf on Libby), or anything else.
I asked around and found 6 interested people and set up an email chain and a recurring monthly invite. Having it recurring and already on their calendar long in advance really helps.
Usually at least one person can't make it but as long as there's at least 4 people that's good enough to meet up. We picked a quiet neighborhood bar to go to but will sometimes switch it up to someone's house or another bar/restaurant. Sometimes someone will need to leave the group but usually there's someone who has a coworker or friend already in mind that they'd love to join and so we all meet people we otherwise wouldn't have.
I am part of a group like this and it is so fun. Trying to find a book that works for everyone is nearly impossible, so instead of that, we share the following when we get together.
- What are you reading now?
- What books do you love?
- What books do you hate?
- What books do you want to read?
- For those of us who want to discuss a particular book, we give ourselves a couple of months to read it and then find a time to meet to discuss it as part of our larger meeting or meet separately for coffee to chat about it.
- We also have an active group chat where we alert one another to sales or free books and bookish events going on in our city.
I think part of our hesitation to ask for help is that, when we have asked, people have said no. Even the people who say I'm here for you, just ask me if you need anything. I've been seriously let down by people who saw a life change for me, literally told me that they were here to help and to just ask, and then actually weren't there to help. We throw out the words without thinking people are going to take us up on it, because people don't (and I suspect because they've been burned before).
For this reason, when I tell people they can count on me and make sure I walk that walk. I check up on them, I send them silly memes, I ask about their pets or kids or parents. I make myself a part of their lives, even if it's just digitally, so that's it's not a sudden text message after months of silence.
that part of knowing when you have a friend who shows up for and who you're willing to show up for is the crux. I just turned 50, and I feel like my decades went:
20's - make a lot of acquaintances, form a million loose ties.
30's - make a lot of plans, deal with folks flaking, strengthen ties with the ones who actually show up and give as much energy to the friendship as I do.
40's - knit the smaller community, start re-expanding through connections of trusted friends.
"Most people feel left behind in some way" is HUGE. Thank you for naming this.
I find myself abiding by an Isolation Olympics style prioritization even as I know everyone, literally everyone, could use help. It kinda feels like a valid-response-gone-haywire thing, as most of us don't have abundant resources or skills at this so we need to choose where to invest our resources and skills wisely. I've been reflecting lately on what types of need have primacy in my mind and why.
New parents, for example, feel like an easy one to prioritize; but what about friends taking care of aging parents in decline, or friends struggling with chronic health issues? I notice how they feel "harder" to support in part because there is no easy gift, less linearity and almost zero predictability to their schedules and experience, and it is overall just so sad. The emotional quality feels different than supporting friends with positive milestones, like having a baby or moving into a new place. None of this is groundbreaking insight but even by pausing for a moment to tease out my own assumptions and gut feelings helps me get over them so I might better show up at all.
Absolutely. I'm living this now. I'm childfree by choice, but in the last several years have had a whole bunch of crap where I need my friends more than ever - the sudden death of a parent (friends showed up 100%), got diagnosed with cancer (some friends were great, others disappeared and those friendships have never been the same), death of sibling (during the early months of covid, so not a whole of traditional support available there) and in the last 4 months have unexpectedly become a caregiver to an aging parent (one or two friends have really been amazing, but I feel pretty abandoned by others). I worry I've used up my allotment of support, which sucks. And it also pisses me off, given how many bridal and baby showers I've hosted and how many kid birthdays and friend milestones I've gone to and such, not to mention helping a few through breakups and divorces... and now that I need them, it's not there. And not only do I suck at asking for help, I'm too fucking tired to ask for help.
I think the "allotment" makes it hard to ask, especially with chronic conditions, because you don't want to use up the available asks in case you *really* need it later.
Sorry to hear this. I'm also childfree and I get the resentment that can build up. It feels like I've given so much and often feels like I receive so little from those same folks. I'm also bad at asking for help! One tiny suggestion is to prepare with close friends. I've found that to be helpful for me. I actually made a google doc with some suggestions for groceries/take out items and shared it (thanks previous AHP thread which had a template) with just a few close friends. It made it much easier to ask when I am ill (I struggle with chronic illness) for someone to pick up groceries or drop off a meal because when I was feeling good I had provided a cheat sheet of sorts. And made it easier for friends. Are there things you often need help with that you can ask someone in advance to do in the future?
Thanks for sharing this. I suspect you're right about the ease of supporting people through "predictable" milestones. We know what we're supposed to do when someone has a baby or has an acute illness like cancer - meal trains, gifts, offers to hold the baby so the mom can shower. It's much more difficult emotionally and logistically to figure out what to do when someone has long covid or has depression. As someone who struggles with chronic illness, it can be hard for me to even formulate wheat I need in any given moment. And so often those needs are at very unwelcoming hours - in the middle of the night for example! Even just acknolwedging these assumptions is helpful.
Ooooh the "acute" framing is also a big one, appreciate you calling this out. Almost like "so this will be over in [insert range of weeks or months] right?" vs. something much more ambiguous, enduring, and/or with flare-ups.
Here's a vulnerable question: how do you handle rejection/lack of interest? And how do you handle being the person who's always making the invites, even if the other people say yes? I get so tired and so insecure when I'm always the one to make the effort, dreading either people who aren't interested or those who never reciprocate. I've had several periods in my life where I was really lonely and most of my efforts to make friends/community were fails. It's hard to not go back to those feelings and fears when I try again now.
I have no idea. I recently quit dating because I found the pain of loneliness/being alone was more tolerable than the pain of rejection. Mustering the effort to try, putting myself out there and getting rejected was too much to take. Loneliness sucks, but at least it's just a constant pain rather than sharp kicks
I’ve opted out of dating for the same reasons. I really wish I had a built-in person to travel and do mundane things with, but I end up just making myself do them alone anyway. It’s hard—I relate to you.
I struggle with this too and I think I've had to find a balance between letting things peter out when it's just too exhausting to always initiate but on the other hand to accept that planning and coordinating is easier for me than some people and a labor I'm sometimes willing to do for the sake of needed social interactions. It has helped me to see that the taking initiative skills that I take for granted are harder for some people and that might explain some of the lack of reciprocity.
No real advice, just solidarity. This is a tough spot, especially for that insecurity you talk about. At times I've quietly backed off effort in some friendships to relieve myself of the stress, and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by who steps up, while other times I'm disappointed by who doesn't. I want community, but I'm learning to be ok with quality over quantity, if it has to be one or the other (a dichotomy that I'd like to break).
I really feel this as a 40-something childless woman living very far from family. Loneliness is tough; I often feel like people tend to just default into their “tribe”. I would say to try to not take it too personally. It’s really not a personal rejection the vast majority of time - it’s just that making connection later in life is hard, and most people just find it easier to not do the hard thing. It is truly them, not you. It also means that it is worth it when you connect with someone willing to do the hard thing. I recently reconnected with someone I fleetingly knew 10 years ago and we just have such a deep connection as friends that I knew she values me and I don’t mind being the one mostly initiating (she has two young kids). It’s hard not to sound like I’m giving some trite advice - but keep reaching out! If they are not receptive, they have some shit going on in their lives related to God knows what - you move on! Sending all my support.
“6.) Friendship, care, and community-building is periodically no fun at all. It’s un-optimizable. You can’t put it in your resume. You can’t buy it, or hack it, or fast-track it. But its value is beyond measure.” Amen amen amen! And because that is true the cultural powers at play will try to convince you not to do it! Do it anyway!!! Love this piece!
One of the things I think is contributing to loneliness is the sort of fashion to cut off people who are different / don’t believe as you do / different politically, and the list goes on.
I know some of these people - and they are incredibly lonely. One woman cut off everyone in her family because they didn’t interact with her exactly as she described her boundaries to them, which were very extreme terms. She’s miserable. Others I see cutting off parents and family for politics. They assume everyone is anti their cause, but the reason people vote for someone is not one issue for the most part, and may not be what someone assumes.
What is the point? To only interact with the ideological pure? To find these perfect people?
Personally, to have friends I’ve found I need to be open to many views and hear what people have to say. I come away richer for the experience. Also, it’s okay to not agree with your friend or relative and maintain a relationship with them. I’ve learned a lot as a person by being open and hearing people’s ideas and views and reasons.
I’ve also had views in the past I now find silly, but my family has allowed me the space to grow as a person as have my friends. It’s important we give our family and friends space and talk about issues without the end being a cut off or even a threat of that.
I think history is replete with examples of people being cut off because of different beliefs. So I don’t know if this is a new phenomenon that might explain the recent increase in people reporting loneliness.
For example, during the American civil war, family members not only stopped talking to each other, but were actively fighting each other because they had different beliefs about whether or not it was okay to own Black people.
Jim Crow is an example of white people putting up extreme boundaries on interpersonal relationships by developing elaborate laws and etiquette rules to protect their ideology.
Another example: My grandmother believed that pre-marital sex was fine, and her family disagreed. When she became pregnant out-of-wedlock, she was immediately disowned and thrown out of the house.
Countless parents have cut off their LGBTQIA2S+ children and rendered them homeless because they believed their children's existence was an abomination.
When it comes to the practice of cutting off people with different beliefs, I’m wondering if there’s been a shift in WHO is doing the cutting-off.
Perhaps historically, the people who held cultural power (i.e. people who were white, male, cisgender, heterosexual, and/or Christian) were the ones ending relationships or putting extreme boundaries on relationships.
Perhaps currently, we’re seeing a shift where the people who don’t hold cultural power are choosing to end relationships or put boundaries on relationships. For example, a trans teen who decides to stop attending Thanksgiving dinner because her uncle supported a bill to deny her health care. Or the disabled/chronically ill who have had to put a lot of boundaries on interactions with friends/family in order to avoid catching a virus that could worsen their health or kill them.
💯 this is exactly what those leading the anti-woke cancel culture panic have been whining about. I'm not convinced that the white supremacist misogynist transphobes who are currently trampling all over everyone to re-assert their power would have been tempered by neices/daughters/etc being more tolerant of their worldview.
With the example of the woman who cut off her family, we could assume that she’s miserable because she has fewer people to hang out with. But maybe she’s miserable because she learned a hard truth that her family didn’t share her core values?
I think we have to allow people some grace. We’ve all said/done ignorant things. We've all benefitted from patient people who've helped us learn and grow. But I also think the job of educating people about their ignorance has disproportionately fallen on marginalized people, and a whole lot of people are burnt out.
At a certain point, if a relative/friend is not willing to see the harm caused by their views/actions, then it’s fair for there to be consequences. In law, there’s a concept called ‘wilful ignorance’ or ‘wilful blindness’ that gets at this idea. If a person refuses to educate themselves or shuts their eyes to problematic aspects of a situation, they deserve to face consequences.
I grew up in a culture/generation where we were taught not to discuss politics or to let politics affect our relationships. But look where that approach got us. The arc of the moral universe looks like a fucking pretzel at the moment!
Fascism is growing across the world. Most of us live in regions that have experienced catastrophic weather events caused by rapid climate change. It’s really terrifying to know that parts of the earth won’t be habitable when my child reaches adulthood. I don’t know if my child is going to have to fight in a world war to bring down fascist leaders like my grandfathers did. Given the urgency of these issues, I think it makes sense that people are choosing to cut people out of their lives who don’t share their values, even if it risks some loneliness.
Interesting! I have a lot of family with different political beliefs and.... I just don't talk about politics. If I cut them out, my life would be a total mess.
As a childfree person by choice in their early 30s, sometimes what I find difficult about this time in life in particular is that people my age JUST got out of the chaos of our 20s, there is FINALLY some stability and maybe even a little more cashflow in our lives, and it feels like we've had barely 5 seconds with fully developed frontal lobes, time that is our own, as well as maturity, joy, and wonder for our communities. Unfortunately, early 30s is also a GREAT time to have kids, which pours chaos, financial insecurity, sleep deprivation, and a constant stream of sicknesses and viruses right back into the mix (funny how similar this is to life in your early 20s). It's hard not to distance myself from friends having babies right now (especially babies — older kids feel like a different story) because I have NO desire to go back to the way I felt in my 20s. Not yet. I want the chance to luxuriate in this very first moment of stability and calm. But I've yet to spend time with my friends with young kids without the kids (no fault of their own) completely imploding our time together. I really want to be there for my friends with kids but the consistent chaos of their lives and their shattered attention just makes it feel like a huge chore. Maybe this gets better in your 40s? 50s?
I'm 49 and I think it does get better, but also my friends are the ones I made an effort to stay connected with even through the chaos of raising kids and/or careers in our 30s. I'm a new empty nester and feel like I have 80% more brain space now, even though I'm still pretty involved with both my kids! Some of our best couple friends are a younger couple who doesn't have kids (yet? not sure) and so we are pretty free to have fun with them. What I'm trying to say is YES, it does get much better, and it's worth trying to stay in touch if the person is a good friend.
This was so relatable - I felt the same at 30. When I was in that place, I spent a lot of time luxuriating in things that I knew my friends didn't enjoy. I'd listen to the music they didn't love, I'd eat at the places I knew they didn't like. I also spent a lot of time enjoying my crochet hobby (my friends thought it was lame). I got to experience some calm. But I could also use my hobby to stay somewhat connected to my friends, by crocheting a sweater or a Christmas stocking for their babies. Honestly, I'd take the time to luxuriate in the calm, cause frankly, we're in for a lot of chaos at a global level, and you ought to rest up while you can.
I think this makes sense. I had kids in my late 20s and am just now (35) coming out of the instability. I never really had it before I lost it so maybe that was easier for me? Either way I think that your friends with little kids will be out of it much sooner than they (and maybe you) can imagine. I like that AHP pointed out that there are times in our lives when we aren't able to be the best friend. I am sure that is true for your friends with little babies and the chaos that comes with but maybe it is true for you right now too? And that is okay. If I were you I would keep boundaries and sort of muddle through for a little bit with the knowledge that things will change again soon.
Mmmm, yes. "There are times in our lives when we aren't able to be the best friend." I think just hearing that allows me to give myself and my friends with kids more grace.
As a family who moves around a bit for my husband’s job, we seem to constantly be in this struggle. Building community takes YEARS! Something we don’t always have available to us. But I do my best. My current strategy really hinges on my elementary aged kids, and hosting one million play dates. I make a conscious effort at least weekly to invite friendly kids over to play, make my home as welcoming as possible to them, and invite parents in when they drop off/pick up.
Our invitations to play have almost 100% acceptance! Parents coming in to visit - maybe 25%. Reciprocal play date invitations … batting under 10% for sure.
Hosting kids and getting to know them has been a joy for our family, and the lack of reciprocity fascinating to ponder. Kids and their parents always accept our repeat invitations! And I find it easy to keep inviting because I keep the stakes low - I don’t plan activities for the kids, I don’t panic clean the house, I don’t prepare an Instagram worth snack tray. The kids find their own fun, don’t notice the clutter, and eat what they find in the pantry. I often wonder if other parents hold themselves to higher, more suffocating and unattainable standards - like AHP refers to in her essay among the white bourgeois. I think that hits the nail on the head.
Anyway long story short. This effort has been extremely labor intensive on my side with not a ton of reciprocation. But, three years later and we have a bit of a network built - folks who will pick up the kids if I’m out of town, or come over for the odd dinner with the family. It seems like a low payoff after such a long time but it’s a long game and so gratifying when the labor begins to bear fruit. I’ve had to recognize that this is the chapter I’m in / the chapter those who surround me are in - so for now I’ve accepted that I will be trying hardest. Life is so much more full when shared, so it remains worth it.
The lack of reciprocity is something my husband and I talk about a lot - we don't have kids, but we are the people in our social group that consistently host 95% of friend get-togethers. If we take a break from hosting, events just.... don't happen. The acknowledgement of the long game is really important, thank you!
"If it feels like your friend only talks about their kids, that’s because they spend a lot of time thinking about their kids. Come up with ways to help decenter the conversation."
I need this so badly. All I do right now is work and parent. I *want* to talk about something other than kids, mortgages, and the best local petting zoo but hfs, it is really hard! My interior life is rich, I read deeply and have so many plans/wishes/ideas, but it seems like the conversation never gets there and when I hang out with other parents, it's all kids all the time. Free me! Insist on a child-free conversation!
I don't mind talking about my kids, but when someone asks, 'how's it going?' or 'what did you do over the weekend?' Most of time I spent time with the kids that weekend and my mood is often directly related to my children or what's going on with them. And that's fine, but I do feel like I could use more mental stimulation.
It can definitely be hard to have other conversations. I kind of have to be intentional about it.
Yes! Getting to talk adult to adult about being a PERSON (ie not just a parent) is so rare! I think we have to think about kids so much that it's our default but I love the encouragement from others to talk about other topics!
I'm really struggling with how to do this in a way that's compatible with my health needs and would love advice/suggestions!
I'm chronically ill and immunocompromised, which makes it really hard to figure out safe ways to be together with people in person. (I know digitally is an option, but it's not the same and I'd like in-person to be an option at least sometimes.) My specific challenges: I generally need to mask around non-household members; I need to avoid crowds, especially indoors; I have a very specific diet and trust issues around non-household members providing my food; I have unpredictable restrictions on my energy levels; and I live in the PNW where it rains 9 months of the year.
With my particular challenges added to everyone's busy-ness, I just don't know where to start with building/rekindling friendships and community. Anyone else in this same boat? Or any ideas for small steps I can take to start?
I have chronic vestibular migraines that place various limits on what I can do, and my natural inclination is to lean away from explaining or asking help from anyone but my spouse. A past therapist encouraged me to be more candid with friends and ask a little more of them. Like instead of never hiking, saying "Hey friend, want to go for a hike? I might get dizzy and need to stop, but I miss it and would so value it if you'd come with me anyway."...and lo and behold, people mostly feel genuinely happy to help!
I don't know what the parallel would be for you, but maybe it's asking 1-2 people over to watch a TV show, cook or bake together, have a glass of wine, or do a craft - with the caveat that you can't predict your energy, but you'd so love to see them if they'd be willing to work within your needs. I don't know if this is relevant for you, just sharing a tangentially related experience :)
I feel this. I never want to explain my issues especially since mine are mostly digestive and its hard to avoid verring into tmi territory. But a good reminder to just state limitations and then let folks adjust. When I have done this, friends have been mostly wonderful (family is another story!)
Lol I'm so glad you commented - I also tend to not want to explain my health limitations and I have also had a past therapist suggest I be more candid! Maybe there's something to that. 😅 I'm taking this as a sign to lean in to being more open and vulnerable.
I just want to say that I am in very similar boat! And it’s been one of the hardest parts of losing Twitter (alas) because some of my online communities have been the absolute best.
My spouse and I relocated to Denver in 2020 from Seattle, and for all people talk about the freeze, I am really struggling to connect with people here and miss my friends in the PNW. More of them still mask, will accommodate my need to be outside if socializing without masks, etc.
I don’t have easy answers, but I’ve found mutual aid groups are more willing to accommodate me. I’m still playing a sport (masked and go outside to hydrate). And I’ve doubled down on my texting and pen pal-ing.
If you’re able to create a comfortable outdoor space, and invite people, do it! If you can find a local community of other immunocompromised folk, check there. Perhaps it’s joining a group (craft, hike, book) and simply masking and bringing a tiny portable air purifier. It’s not perfect, but I’m trying to find ways to exist in a world hostile to my existence.
Not OC or immunocompromised, but I'm in the Denver area and am always looking to connect with folks! I might know of a couple indoor social spaces friendly to your needs (have you heard of Rainbowdome?) and if nothing else it's sometimes just nice to chat with folks who share your geography.
I’m in a small community, so there are no local COVID-cautious clubs. I tried joining hiking groups, but it turns out the Venn diagram between local hikers and COVID-conspiracists has an awful lot of overlap.
I’ve got many relatives who won’t mask but will meet outdoors, and I’m lucky to have a backyard, so I built a gazebo for rain protection, purchased a patio heater for relief from the cold, and good-quality outerwear (I’m in northern Canada). I keep extra coats/mittens/toques/umbrellas and a stockpile of blankets in case guests aren’t adequately dressed. I honestly find these outdoor visits to be more fun and memorable, and way less work, than indoor visits in the BeforeTimes.
Art galleries generally have strict rules about air ventilation and humidity to preserve the art, so if the weather is truly horrific and we need to meet in an indoor space but the other person isn’t willing to mask, I’ll suggest we walk around the art gallery. (I still wear my mask in the gallery.)
Unfortunately, these accommodations only maintain my existing social circle - they’re not helping me expand my circle.
I found an artist a couple of hours away who seemed open to offering art lessons while masked. I was hoping to rent a place near her studio to spend a weekend making art with her. But I haven’t yet been able to find COVID-cautious childcare to make that happen.
I feel like I’m in a never-ending loop. I need COVID-cautious friends so I can have help with childcare… I need COVID-cautious childcare so I can find friends…
In the meantime, I’ve been trying to nurture loose social ties. E.g. I go to the library once a week when it’s not too busy, and even though the library has self-checkouts, I visit the desk so I can chat with the librarians. I’ll ask them which books they’ve read lately and what they thought of those books. Many of my librarians are also writers, so I’ll ask if they’re working on any short stories.
These are some really solid suggestions, thank you! I have a space in my yard that could be made more weather protected. And I love your idea of leaning in to more loose social ties. And honestly it does help to know I'm not the only one trying to navigate this. ❤️
I think a lot of the answers here are really, really good. I'm also in a COLD place for lots of the year where I've had to work to make outdoor gatherings more feasible, and I like the idea of adding a covered area (even one of those portable ones?) and possibly heater.
There's always the balance of energy with everything else, too. I read a book a while back (can't remember which one!) that noted that one of the challenges of living with chronic illness and/or dynamic and/or invisible disabilities is that the effort it takes to explain oneself is emotional labour that already reduces the amount of energy we have for everything else.
This is one reason I'm so, so grateful when folks post in comment sections like this one, because it doesn't just let us resource-share, it also makes visible the realities we're living through for the community members in the comments section who aren't living with these particular challenges. And perhaps that will open more folks' eyes to what their friends / family members / community members are going through more locally, too, because sometimes the thing I most want is to not have to be the problem-solver. I would LOVE for more local friends to say, "Hey, we'd love to see you. Here are some ideas I had about how we could do this safely. Would they work for you?"
And I would also love to get better about doing this for folks in my circles whose challenges are different from mine. I love to think of our capacity to see and care for each other expanding a little bit every time AHP opens up comments and discussion. That makes me hopeful.
That's what pushed me to have the courage to comment and ask for suggestions - not just to get some tips but also to make this kind of struggle more visible to those without the direct lived experience. (Big thanks to AHP for curating a safe space to have these vulnerable conversations!)
And thank you for sharing the bit about emotional labor. I hadn't framed it that way for myself but it definitely rings true to my own experience!
Same boat, in NoCo, unfortunately I rarely have the energy to drive to Denver or I'd suggest something!
I recently got one of the home PCR tests so I can get real time covid status if someone visits. I haven't tested the social acceptance of it yet, so who knows. And it doesn't really address all the other bugs out there, but I'm not sure what else to do.
Lucira makes at at-home PCR test that also tests for flu. I haven't tried using it (or asking others to), but I did think about getting some. Per this Lifehacker writeup, it looks like it's accuracy isn't as food as some other home PCRs, but it would be convenient to just test once.
I remember reading this article when it was originally written…at the time, I was newly married without kids. Fast forward to today and I just gave birth to twins two weeks ago. To say that this piece resonates would be an understatement. The line around what parents with newborn babies need is so true! My husband and I don’t actually need help with the babies at the moment because they are currently on an endless loop of diaper changes, feeding and lots of sleeping. But we could use help with every other facet of life. We’ve been outsourcing a lot (Instacart, DoorDash, etc.) because while we have decent support systems, we haven’t figured out how to mobilize them for this particular time in our lives. As others have said, community is so necessary and yet the work of building and leveraging it is so hard.
Mama of twins here (my girls are now 24) sending love cause those early days are HARD and even friends with kids don’t always appreciate the intensity of life with TWO infants! Xo
I have two young kids but most of my close friends from college/20s are child free and long distance. While sometimes it's hard to connect when our lives look so different day to day on the whole I'm really really grateful to have friends with the time and capacity to love me and my family so well. I've been touched when several have gone out of their way to travel long distance (in one case literally around the world!!) just to visit me and connect with my kids in person. I've tried to reciprocate by staying connected to them directly even when it's sporadic or there's only time for short conversations but also to intentionally help my kids feel connected to my friends, for example by having them record videos to say happy birthday, send art projects they make, or just showing them pictures regularly so they remember who these other adults are.
After one miserable nuclear family vacation, my partner and I decided to try inviting a child free friend on our summer vacations with our 2 kids and that has been such a joy for everyone. I hope to continue that until my kids are old enough for trips to actually feel like vacations again! :)
The core of my particular community comes from one of the last vestiges of "joiner culture" available to GenX folks - nightclubs and music scenes. Specifically, I started hanging out at goth / industrial / techno clubs in the 90s and 00s, made friends amongst the regulars and stayed friends long after those spaces got bought up to feed the never-ending hunger for gentrified condos. The thing that I liked about a subcultural club scene is that they were centered on music and not on the hookups. People watched out for each other, and being there was intrinsically low stakes. You could show up, chat with friends and spend time catching up or you could show up dance to a bunch of music, wave at people and keep the social interaction really light. Then, over weeks and months of continuously showing up, you'd find people that you vibed well with and that would become a community.
Then, as we aged up and transitioned from renters to homeowners, we'd help each other move, paint and decorate, and that became its own kind of community that lived beyond the club scene.
I don't go out as often as I used to, but I do think it's worth supporting small community venues like this to give other people their shot at finding community. Or, at least, a good night out with good music.
I'd just like to give a bit of encouragement to people who are trying desperately to build community and finding it slow going. Six years ago I had toddler twins and was pregnant with my third when I needed to go to the hospital. We had no one to call, so I white knuckled it through dinner, we put the kids in PJs, and my husband dropped me at the ER doors and he drove around the metro with two sleeping kids while I got checked out. That incident really threw into sharp relief how isolated our lives were, and with consistent efforts, things are better now. I still don't have the community I desire (why can't I find an in-person book club that will have me?!) but I do have people who will watch my kids in a pinch and who can count on me to do the same. AHP is 100% right, you can't optimize or hack this work, but with time and effort, you can plant seeds and see them grow.
I live north of Minneapolis and in many ways also feel as though I'm still in search of the community I desire! I also have twins + one (my twins are now 10 and the one is now 8) and am an avid bookish person. If you would ever want to connect please reach out. (So long as that's not a totally weird/creepy thing that I'm suggesting over a comment thread, haha.)
Why are people in Minnesota so chilly (pun, there)? I'm in the Boston suburbs. We're supposed to be cold, but our community is really very welcoming to new people.
Sorry catching up to this thread a month later... I am in the Boston suburbs and it is a little bit chilly here. Curious which Boston suburb you have found a more welcoming vibe?
Where are you located? (If it's not weird to ask that as a random person on the internet haha) My in-person book club is mostly moms and looking to grow!
St. Paul, MN!
Hi Amy! I am in the Twin Cities and in a fantastic in person book club with several other culture study readers (hi Julia! haha) - we would love to have you! Want to message
me and I'll add you to the email list and you can see if you might be interested? I'm at jacqschweiger at gmail dot com!
I no longer live in the Twin Cities, in part because the social aspect was so hard to break into. You're doing community on hard mode there!
Thank you for validating my experience!! My husband and I are both transplants and I sometimes think it would be disproportionately easier if one of us was a local. What little community I had pre-covid was all transplants and we used to joke that "Minnesotans are very friendly but they already have all their friends"
Ugh, not in MN but have and currently live in other parts of the Midwest. Nobody moves away and everyone's roster is already pretty full from their primary school/college friends! I know the quitting thread was recently, but I actually in the past couple of years quit a friend group because it had been almost 5 years and I still wasn't in the group chat. Anyways, just here to commiserate, lol.
@Amy, you're not the first person I've heard this saying this! My mom is from Minnesota, & I still have lots of relatives in the Twin Cities area -- they're a pretty friendly bunch, but then, I'm related to them & I don't live there ;) -- and yeah -- from what I can tell, they all grow up together, go to the same schools, etc., and tend to stick together.
I live in a large suburban area near Toronto -- we moved here 8 years ago to be near family. I still don't really know anyone here aside from family. Same thing: it's a community where the majority is from the same ethnic community (and many of them are related to each other!), many of them (especially the younger ones) grew up here, went to school together (and now their kids go to the same schools together), etc. I don't have those connections. It's a very family-focused community, but I don't have kids, so I don't have that instant connecting point. I'm not part of that ethnic group (just married into it). I did attend a book club for about a year and was just starting to get to get to know people and put names to faces, etc. -- and then along came covid, it shut down and hasn't restated. (sigh)
Awww I'm on the other side of the country, unfortunately! I hope you're able to meet some booklovers in person soon!
When many of my friends started having children, a good number of them automatically referred to me as "Auntie Anita" to their children, and it's stuck through the years. I always found it charming, not having any nieces and nephews of my own until much later in my life, but now with the passage of a number of decades, I've come to believe that this decision on my friends' parts had a profound impact on how close their kids feel to me or I feel to them. I'm not suggested that just calling someone "Auntie" is a magic wand that ushers in close feelings, but what I am saying is that it establishes a special relationship and communicates two (or more!) things: for the kids, the message is "Listen up, kiddos! Anita is a valued member of our family who has a relationship with you that has a name." For me, the message is, "Listen up, Anita! We love you and think of you as an aunt to our children." That elevated role kept giving me purchase with certain kids I wouldn't see as often: being Auntie Anita bridges geographies. (And thinking about it, many of the families who used this term were ones that lived at a distance and I didn't see day-to-day.) It also invited me in to live up to that role—in the best way—by feeling I didn't have to earn the role, but it had been automatically bestowed upon me and was mine to honor.
I really love this - I totally agree with you and (as a childless person) have always felt very honored by the "Auntie" title (and, like you said, inspired to live up to it)! I have one friend whose husband feels very strongly that aunt/uncle titles are only for people who are related by blood/marriage, which feels a little stingy to me.
(Although, as a counterpoint, we did not use aunt/uncle titles for the beloved adults who were in my life when I was a kid - and we lived a long distance from and had very limited relationships with our actual extended family - and those relationships still felt special to me. So maybe it can work both ways!)
Oh I definitely agree it can work both ways: I feel very close to kids where I'm simply Anita, a close family friend who has witnessed them growing up and has cheered them on the whole way. And interestingly, I don't refer to my actual aunts and uncles as Uncle X or Aunt Y, it just wasn't the habit on either side of my family, but I have very close relationships with many of them.
I grew up in the kind of family that called everyone by their first names--aunts, uncles, cousins, beloved friends. Heck, my mom called her parents by their first names. So I very much don't think that a title means anything at all to signify closeness. In fact, it was a weird point of pride as a young adult because I felt like all my closeness with my wide variety of aunts was a testament to the strength of our relationship not a "fake" one that was just a title. All that to say, don't let the lack of aunt/uncle title get in the way of having a close relationship with those kiddos--you can develop a special name that only those kids get to use if you like. A title can be a shortcut but it's only as meaningful as you want it to be.
I also grew up in an environment where there was a lot of first name use between generations (an intentional community where it was the norm, and a faith tradition that underscored that kind of egalitarian approach) and I loved the simplicity of shedding any kinds of honorifics. As as I said to Sarah, I agree with you that no title is ever necessary to establish closeness! But reflecting this morning I realized for me words can have influence, and that introducing the title in the cases I've experienced, is one way to invite deeper engagement.
As a former intentional community person, I'm always happy to see them pop up elsewhere!
Being an uncle or aunt is the best!
Tip for anybody looking to build a relationship with their friend's young kids who live far away: Send them postcards and letters! Every toddler I know is absolutely wild for mail. It doesn't have to be anything difficult - write one sentence about something you did recently, ask them one question, maybe add a little drawing (even if you're not an artist! A 2 year old does not care!). Add a stamp and you have made that kid's day.
I think sometimes people would like to be the fun aunt/uncle/pibling/etc for their friend's kid but don't know how to get started, especially if they live far away. It can be tempting to think you'll wait until they're older, but I think if you have the opportunity to make that connection earlier, it will be more effective. Also, I think it's easier to be understanding and tolerant of how much your friend's life revolves around their kid if the kid is also special to you too, and any feedback of the "hey, can we find more time for child-free hangouts?" variety is more likely to be well-received when your friend knows for an absolute fact that you do value and enjoy their child.
When my cat-loving son was little my best friend, who lived across the country, sent him books featuring cats “from” her cat. She made an illustration and inscription to him (again, from her cat) in the front covers. Many of the books were used, it didn’t matter! Now that he is older we still cherish those books and the sweetness of reading the inscriptions.
My friend and I live on opposite sides of the country, and I mail her young kid (we started when they were 2.5 or 3, and they're now 6) a postcard every week, like clockwork - it's a very cherished routine for both of us!
I love this
I do this with my nieces/nephews and friends' kids! I frequently travel for work and try to always send them something so they at least know that (1) I'm thinking about them and (2) I'm out living my own interesting life. I recently sent a postcard from Crater Lake to a friend's 5-year old kid and she sent a Marco Polo video saying that she now wants to visit the park with me, which warms my childfree auntie heart.
Love this! In the same vein, a plain old paper birthday card goes a long way. Add some stickers for bonus points. Kids always remember the folks who send them a card every year (don't you?!).
My daughter is 2 (+a few months) and my mom just sent her her first piece of mail in this vein - a card with her favorite animal on it, a short message that I read to her, and a sheet of stickers. My kid has now decorated the card and envelope with the stickers and with markers, and it was one of her favorite toys for a few days. I think it was really special for her.
This is the tip I needed
Love this! This is something I’m going to try.
I've been hosting a BYOB (Bring Your Own Bookclub) for a couple years now and it's been awesome. I started it after getting incredibly frustrated at my lack of community and wishing there was something and a friend encouraged me to just do it myself.
Letting people read whatever they want is the biggest thing, I've joined and left a few book clubs over the years. I'm the non-fiction person while others are romance fans; another is into parenting/life coaching books, and so on. We each do a shorter almost book report when we meet up and if we bring physical books optionally let the others borrow them. Sometimes a book will take off and everyone will end up reading it and sometimes it's a bust especially if you hated the book and warn everyone away from it, but all in all it's fun as hell.
This is how I always imagined the The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society book club worked.
Similar in low pressure, but different format, a few friends and I keep a shared book list that we update with initials when we've completed it. Once all three of us have read it we discuss.
This is a great idea! I bet you could even expand it to TV shows and movies as well, if people in your circle aren't prolific readers!
Interesting! How does that work - do people just share about the book, what they liked, if they recommend it?
Exactly, we share what we liked/disliked, if you think anyone else would like it, and then we all go on tangents like if we liked the author's other books, where we found it (physically at the library, or if it's on the library's ebook shelf on Libby), or anything else.
Great idea! How do you organize it?
I asked around and found 6 interested people and set up an email chain and a recurring monthly invite. Having it recurring and already on their calendar long in advance really helps.
Usually at least one person can't make it but as long as there's at least 4 people that's good enough to meet up. We picked a quiet neighborhood bar to go to but will sometimes switch it up to someone's house or another bar/restaurant. Sometimes someone will need to leave the group but usually there's someone who has a coworker or friend already in mind that they'd love to join and so we all meet people we otherwise wouldn't have.
I am part of a group like this and it is so fun. Trying to find a book that works for everyone is nearly impossible, so instead of that, we share the following when we get together.
- What are you reading now?
- What books do you love?
- What books do you hate?
- What books do you want to read?
- For those of us who want to discuss a particular book, we give ourselves a couple of months to read it and then find a time to meet to discuss it as part of our larger meeting or meet separately for coffee to chat about it.
- We also have an active group chat where we alert one another to sales or free books and bookish events going on in our city.
This is a BRILLIANT idea! I'm going to steal it!!
I really love this idea!
I think part of our hesitation to ask for help is that, when we have asked, people have said no. Even the people who say I'm here for you, just ask me if you need anything. I've been seriously let down by people who saw a life change for me, literally told me that they were here to help and to just ask, and then actually weren't there to help. We throw out the words without thinking people are going to take us up on it, because people don't (and I suspect because they've been burned before).
For this reason, when I tell people they can count on me and make sure I walk that walk. I check up on them, I send them silly memes, I ask about their pets or kids or parents. I make myself a part of their lives, even if it's just digitally, so that's it's not a sudden text message after months of silence.
Community is hard, but so so necessary.
that part of knowing when you have a friend who shows up for and who you're willing to show up for is the crux. I just turned 50, and I feel like my decades went:
20's - make a lot of acquaintances, form a million loose ties.
30's - make a lot of plans, deal with folks flaking, strengthen ties with the ones who actually show up and give as much energy to the friendship as I do.
40's - knit the smaller community, start re-expanding through connections of trusted friends.
This timeline feels very true!
"Most people feel left behind in some way" is HUGE. Thank you for naming this.
I find myself abiding by an Isolation Olympics style prioritization even as I know everyone, literally everyone, could use help. It kinda feels like a valid-response-gone-haywire thing, as most of us don't have abundant resources or skills at this so we need to choose where to invest our resources and skills wisely. I've been reflecting lately on what types of need have primacy in my mind and why.
New parents, for example, feel like an easy one to prioritize; but what about friends taking care of aging parents in decline, or friends struggling with chronic health issues? I notice how they feel "harder" to support in part because there is no easy gift, less linearity and almost zero predictability to their schedules and experience, and it is overall just so sad. The emotional quality feels different than supporting friends with positive milestones, like having a baby or moving into a new place. None of this is groundbreaking insight but even by pausing for a moment to tease out my own assumptions and gut feelings helps me get over them so I might better show up at all.
Absolutely. I'm living this now. I'm childfree by choice, but in the last several years have had a whole bunch of crap where I need my friends more than ever - the sudden death of a parent (friends showed up 100%), got diagnosed with cancer (some friends were great, others disappeared and those friendships have never been the same), death of sibling (during the early months of covid, so not a whole of traditional support available there) and in the last 4 months have unexpectedly become a caregiver to an aging parent (one or two friends have really been amazing, but I feel pretty abandoned by others). I worry I've used up my allotment of support, which sucks. And it also pisses me off, given how many bridal and baby showers I've hosted and how many kid birthdays and friend milestones I've gone to and such, not to mention helping a few through breakups and divorces... and now that I need them, it's not there. And not only do I suck at asking for help, I'm too fucking tired to ask for help.
"I worry I've used up my allotment of support, which sucks." Whew. That's heavy. Hugs to you.
I think the "allotment" makes it hard to ask, especially with chronic conditions, because you don't want to use up the available asks in case you *really* need it later.
Sorry to hear this. I'm also childfree and I get the resentment that can build up. It feels like I've given so much and often feels like I receive so little from those same folks. I'm also bad at asking for help! One tiny suggestion is to prepare with close friends. I've found that to be helpful for me. I actually made a google doc with some suggestions for groceries/take out items and shared it (thanks previous AHP thread which had a template) with just a few close friends. It made it much easier to ask when I am ill (I struggle with chronic illness) for someone to pick up groceries or drop off a meal because when I was feeling good I had provided a cheat sheet of sorts. And made it easier for friends. Are there things you often need help with that you can ask someone in advance to do in the future?
Thanks for sharing this. I suspect you're right about the ease of supporting people through "predictable" milestones. We know what we're supposed to do when someone has a baby or has an acute illness like cancer - meal trains, gifts, offers to hold the baby so the mom can shower. It's much more difficult emotionally and logistically to figure out what to do when someone has long covid or has depression. As someone who struggles with chronic illness, it can be hard for me to even formulate wheat I need in any given moment. And so often those needs are at very unwelcoming hours - in the middle of the night for example! Even just acknolwedging these assumptions is helpful.
Ooooh the "acute" framing is also a big one, appreciate you calling this out. Almost like "so this will be over in [insert range of weeks or months] right?" vs. something much more ambiguous, enduring, and/or with flare-ups.
The point about there being situations where people need support, but there's not a clear path to providing that support, is very true!
Here's a vulnerable question: how do you handle rejection/lack of interest? And how do you handle being the person who's always making the invites, even if the other people say yes? I get so tired and so insecure when I'm always the one to make the effort, dreading either people who aren't interested or those who never reciprocate. I've had several periods in my life where I was really lonely and most of my efforts to make friends/community were fails. It's hard to not go back to those feelings and fears when I try again now.
I have no idea. I recently quit dating because I found the pain of loneliness/being alone was more tolerable than the pain of rejection. Mustering the effort to try, putting myself out there and getting rejected was too much to take. Loneliness sucks, but at least it's just a constant pain rather than sharp kicks
I’ve opted out of dating for the same reasons. I really wish I had a built-in person to travel and do mundane things with, but I end up just making myself do them alone anyway. It’s hard—I relate to you.
I opt out of dating regularly so just offering compassion. Loneliness does suck. No answers from me, just commiserating.
I struggle with this too and I think I've had to find a balance between letting things peter out when it's just too exhausting to always initiate but on the other hand to accept that planning and coordinating is easier for me than some people and a labor I'm sometimes willing to do for the sake of needed social interactions. It has helped me to see that the taking initiative skills that I take for granted are harder for some people and that might explain some of the lack of reciprocity.
No real advice, just solidarity. This is a tough spot, especially for that insecurity you talk about. At times I've quietly backed off effort in some friendships to relieve myself of the stress, and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by who steps up, while other times I'm disappointed by who doesn't. I want community, but I'm learning to be ok with quality over quantity, if it has to be one or the other (a dichotomy that I'd like to break).
I really feel this as a 40-something childless woman living very far from family. Loneliness is tough; I often feel like people tend to just default into their “tribe”. I would say to try to not take it too personally. It’s really not a personal rejection the vast majority of time - it’s just that making connection later in life is hard, and most people just find it easier to not do the hard thing. It is truly them, not you. It also means that it is worth it when you connect with someone willing to do the hard thing. I recently reconnected with someone I fleetingly knew 10 years ago and we just have such a deep connection as friends that I knew she values me and I don’t mind being the one mostly initiating (she has two young kids). It’s hard not to sound like I’m giving some trite advice - but keep reaching out! If they are not receptive, they have some shit going on in their lives related to God knows what - you move on! Sending all my support.
“6.) Friendship, care, and community-building is periodically no fun at all. It’s un-optimizable. You can’t put it in your resume. You can’t buy it, or hack it, or fast-track it. But its value is beyond measure.” Amen amen amen! And because that is true the cultural powers at play will try to convince you not to do it! Do it anyway!!! Love this piece!
Love this piece, glad AHP brought it back up for this conversation.
One of the things I think is contributing to loneliness is the sort of fashion to cut off people who are different / don’t believe as you do / different politically, and the list goes on.
I know some of these people - and they are incredibly lonely. One woman cut off everyone in her family because they didn’t interact with her exactly as she described her boundaries to them, which were very extreme terms. She’s miserable. Others I see cutting off parents and family for politics. They assume everyone is anti their cause, but the reason people vote for someone is not one issue for the most part, and may not be what someone assumes.
What is the point? To only interact with the ideological pure? To find these perfect people?
Personally, to have friends I’ve found I need to be open to many views and hear what people have to say. I come away richer for the experience. Also, it’s okay to not agree with your friend or relative and maintain a relationship with them. I’ve learned a lot as a person by being open and hearing people’s ideas and views and reasons.
I’ve also had views in the past I now find silly, but my family has allowed me the space to grow as a person as have my friends. It’s important we give our family and friends space and talk about issues without the end being a cut off or even a threat of that.
Your comment really has me thinking!
I think history is replete with examples of people being cut off because of different beliefs. So I don’t know if this is a new phenomenon that might explain the recent increase in people reporting loneliness.
For example, during the American civil war, family members not only stopped talking to each other, but were actively fighting each other because they had different beliefs about whether or not it was okay to own Black people.
Jim Crow is an example of white people putting up extreme boundaries on interpersonal relationships by developing elaborate laws and etiquette rules to protect their ideology.
Another example: My grandmother believed that pre-marital sex was fine, and her family disagreed. When she became pregnant out-of-wedlock, she was immediately disowned and thrown out of the house.
Countless parents have cut off their LGBTQIA2S+ children and rendered them homeless because they believed their children's existence was an abomination.
When it comes to the practice of cutting off people with different beliefs, I’m wondering if there’s been a shift in WHO is doing the cutting-off.
Perhaps historically, the people who held cultural power (i.e. people who were white, male, cisgender, heterosexual, and/or Christian) were the ones ending relationships or putting extreme boundaries on relationships.
Perhaps currently, we’re seeing a shift where the people who don’t hold cultural power are choosing to end relationships or put boundaries on relationships. For example, a trans teen who decides to stop attending Thanksgiving dinner because her uncle supported a bill to deny her health care. Or the disabled/chronically ill who have had to put a lot of boundaries on interactions with friends/family in order to avoid catching a virus that could worsen their health or kill them.
💯 this is exactly what those leading the anti-woke cancel culture panic have been whining about. I'm not convinced that the white supremacist misogynist transphobes who are currently trampling all over everyone to re-assert their power would have been tempered by neices/daughters/etc being more tolerant of their worldview.
With the example of the woman who cut off her family, we could assume that she’s miserable because she has fewer people to hang out with. But maybe she’s miserable because she learned a hard truth that her family didn’t share her core values?
I think we have to allow people some grace. We’ve all said/done ignorant things. We've all benefitted from patient people who've helped us learn and grow. But I also think the job of educating people about their ignorance has disproportionately fallen on marginalized people, and a whole lot of people are burnt out.
At a certain point, if a relative/friend is not willing to see the harm caused by their views/actions, then it’s fair for there to be consequences. In law, there’s a concept called ‘wilful ignorance’ or ‘wilful blindness’ that gets at this idea. If a person refuses to educate themselves or shuts their eyes to problematic aspects of a situation, they deserve to face consequences.
I grew up in a culture/generation where we were taught not to discuss politics or to let politics affect our relationships. But look where that approach got us. The arc of the moral universe looks like a fucking pretzel at the moment!
Fascism is growing across the world. Most of us live in regions that have experienced catastrophic weather events caused by rapid climate change. It’s really terrifying to know that parts of the earth won’t be habitable when my child reaches adulthood. I don’t know if my child is going to have to fight in a world war to bring down fascist leaders like my grandfathers did. Given the urgency of these issues, I think it makes sense that people are choosing to cut people out of their lives who don’t share their values, even if it risks some loneliness.
Interesting! I have a lot of family with different political beliefs and.... I just don't talk about politics. If I cut them out, my life would be a total mess.
As a childfree person by choice in their early 30s, sometimes what I find difficult about this time in life in particular is that people my age JUST got out of the chaos of our 20s, there is FINALLY some stability and maybe even a little more cashflow in our lives, and it feels like we've had barely 5 seconds with fully developed frontal lobes, time that is our own, as well as maturity, joy, and wonder for our communities. Unfortunately, early 30s is also a GREAT time to have kids, which pours chaos, financial insecurity, sleep deprivation, and a constant stream of sicknesses and viruses right back into the mix (funny how similar this is to life in your early 20s). It's hard not to distance myself from friends having babies right now (especially babies — older kids feel like a different story) because I have NO desire to go back to the way I felt in my 20s. Not yet. I want the chance to luxuriate in this very first moment of stability and calm. But I've yet to spend time with my friends with young kids without the kids (no fault of their own) completely imploding our time together. I really want to be there for my friends with kids but the consistent chaos of their lives and their shattered attention just makes it feel like a huge chore. Maybe this gets better in your 40s? 50s?
I'm 49 and I think it does get better, but also my friends are the ones I made an effort to stay connected with even through the chaos of raising kids and/or careers in our 30s. I'm a new empty nester and feel like I have 80% more brain space now, even though I'm still pretty involved with both my kids! Some of our best couple friends are a younger couple who doesn't have kids (yet? not sure) and so we are pretty free to have fun with them. What I'm trying to say is YES, it does get much better, and it's worth trying to stay in touch if the person is a good friend.
This was so relatable - I felt the same at 30. When I was in that place, I spent a lot of time luxuriating in things that I knew my friends didn't enjoy. I'd listen to the music they didn't love, I'd eat at the places I knew they didn't like. I also spent a lot of time enjoying my crochet hobby (my friends thought it was lame). I got to experience some calm. But I could also use my hobby to stay somewhat connected to my friends, by crocheting a sweater or a Christmas stocking for their babies. Honestly, I'd take the time to luxuriate in the calm, cause frankly, we're in for a lot of chaos at a global level, and you ought to rest up while you can.
I think this makes sense. I had kids in my late 20s and am just now (35) coming out of the instability. I never really had it before I lost it so maybe that was easier for me? Either way I think that your friends with little kids will be out of it much sooner than they (and maybe you) can imagine. I like that AHP pointed out that there are times in our lives when we aren't able to be the best friend. I am sure that is true for your friends with little babies and the chaos that comes with but maybe it is true for you right now too? And that is okay. If I were you I would keep boundaries and sort of muddle through for a little bit with the knowledge that things will change again soon.
Mmmm, yes. "There are times in our lives when we aren't able to be the best friend." I think just hearing that allows me to give myself and my friends with kids more grace.
As a family who moves around a bit for my husband’s job, we seem to constantly be in this struggle. Building community takes YEARS! Something we don’t always have available to us. But I do my best. My current strategy really hinges on my elementary aged kids, and hosting one million play dates. I make a conscious effort at least weekly to invite friendly kids over to play, make my home as welcoming as possible to them, and invite parents in when they drop off/pick up.
Our invitations to play have almost 100% acceptance! Parents coming in to visit - maybe 25%. Reciprocal play date invitations … batting under 10% for sure.
Hosting kids and getting to know them has been a joy for our family, and the lack of reciprocity fascinating to ponder. Kids and their parents always accept our repeat invitations! And I find it easy to keep inviting because I keep the stakes low - I don’t plan activities for the kids, I don’t panic clean the house, I don’t prepare an Instagram worth snack tray. The kids find their own fun, don’t notice the clutter, and eat what they find in the pantry. I often wonder if other parents hold themselves to higher, more suffocating and unattainable standards - like AHP refers to in her essay among the white bourgeois. I think that hits the nail on the head.
Anyway long story short. This effort has been extremely labor intensive on my side with not a ton of reciprocation. But, three years later and we have a bit of a network built - folks who will pick up the kids if I’m out of town, or come over for the odd dinner with the family. It seems like a low payoff after such a long time but it’s a long game and so gratifying when the labor begins to bear fruit. I’ve had to recognize that this is the chapter I’m in / the chapter those who surround me are in - so for now I’ve accepted that I will be trying hardest. Life is so much more full when shared, so it remains worth it.
The lack of reciprocity is something my husband and I talk about a lot - we don't have kids, but we are the people in our social group that consistently host 95% of friend get-togethers. If we take a break from hosting, events just.... don't happen. The acknowledgement of the long game is really important, thank you!
"If it feels like your friend only talks about their kids, that’s because they spend a lot of time thinking about their kids. Come up with ways to help decenter the conversation."
I need this so badly. All I do right now is work and parent. I *want* to talk about something other than kids, mortgages, and the best local petting zoo but hfs, it is really hard! My interior life is rich, I read deeply and have so many plans/wishes/ideas, but it seems like the conversation never gets there and when I hang out with other parents, it's all kids all the time. Free me! Insist on a child-free conversation!
I don't mind talking about my kids, but when someone asks, 'how's it going?' or 'what did you do over the weekend?' Most of time I spent time with the kids that weekend and my mood is often directly related to my children or what's going on with them. And that's fine, but I do feel like I could use more mental stimulation.
It can definitely be hard to have other conversations. I kind of have to be intentional about it.
Yes! Getting to talk adult to adult about being a PERSON (ie not just a parent) is so rare! I think we have to think about kids so much that it's our default but I love the encouragement from others to talk about other topics!
I'm really struggling with how to do this in a way that's compatible with my health needs and would love advice/suggestions!
I'm chronically ill and immunocompromised, which makes it really hard to figure out safe ways to be together with people in person. (I know digitally is an option, but it's not the same and I'd like in-person to be an option at least sometimes.) My specific challenges: I generally need to mask around non-household members; I need to avoid crowds, especially indoors; I have a very specific diet and trust issues around non-household members providing my food; I have unpredictable restrictions on my energy levels; and I live in the PNW where it rains 9 months of the year.
With my particular challenges added to everyone's busy-ness, I just don't know where to start with building/rekindling friendships and community. Anyone else in this same boat? Or any ideas for small steps I can take to start?
I have chronic vestibular migraines that place various limits on what I can do, and my natural inclination is to lean away from explaining or asking help from anyone but my spouse. A past therapist encouraged me to be more candid with friends and ask a little more of them. Like instead of never hiking, saying "Hey friend, want to go for a hike? I might get dizzy and need to stop, but I miss it and would so value it if you'd come with me anyway."...and lo and behold, people mostly feel genuinely happy to help!
I don't know what the parallel would be for you, but maybe it's asking 1-2 people over to watch a TV show, cook or bake together, have a glass of wine, or do a craft - with the caveat that you can't predict your energy, but you'd so love to see them if they'd be willing to work within your needs. I don't know if this is relevant for you, just sharing a tangentially related experience :)
I feel this. I never want to explain my issues especially since mine are mostly digestive and its hard to avoid verring into tmi territory. But a good reminder to just state limitations and then let folks adjust. When I have done this, friends have been mostly wonderful (family is another story!)
Lol I'm so glad you commented - I also tend to not want to explain my health limitations and I have also had a past therapist suggest I be more candid! Maybe there's something to that. 😅 I'm taking this as a sign to lean in to being more open and vulnerable.
I just want to say that I am in very similar boat! And it’s been one of the hardest parts of losing Twitter (alas) because some of my online communities have been the absolute best.
My spouse and I relocated to Denver in 2020 from Seattle, and for all people talk about the freeze, I am really struggling to connect with people here and miss my friends in the PNW. More of them still mask, will accommodate my need to be outside if socializing without masks, etc.
I don’t have easy answers, but I’ve found mutual aid groups are more willing to accommodate me. I’m still playing a sport (masked and go outside to hydrate). And I’ve doubled down on my texting and pen pal-ing.
Accidentally replied too soon.
If you’re able to create a comfortable outdoor space, and invite people, do it! If you can find a local community of other immunocompromised folk, check there. Perhaps it’s joining a group (craft, hike, book) and simply masking and bringing a tiny portable air purifier. It’s not perfect, but I’m trying to find ways to exist in a world hostile to my existence.
Not OC or immunocompromised, but I'm in the Denver area and am always looking to connect with folks! I might know of a couple indoor social spaces friendly to your needs (have you heard of Rainbowdome?) and if nothing else it's sometimes just nice to chat with folks who share your geography.
I do know Rainbowdome 🤩
They're awesome! I'd love to engage with them more - very excited about the skating space they're building.
I don’t have solutions; just offering solidarity.
I’m in a small community, so there are no local COVID-cautious clubs. I tried joining hiking groups, but it turns out the Venn diagram between local hikers and COVID-conspiracists has an awful lot of overlap.
I’ve got many relatives who won’t mask but will meet outdoors, and I’m lucky to have a backyard, so I built a gazebo for rain protection, purchased a patio heater for relief from the cold, and good-quality outerwear (I’m in northern Canada). I keep extra coats/mittens/toques/umbrellas and a stockpile of blankets in case guests aren’t adequately dressed. I honestly find these outdoor visits to be more fun and memorable, and way less work, than indoor visits in the BeforeTimes.
Art galleries generally have strict rules about air ventilation and humidity to preserve the art, so if the weather is truly horrific and we need to meet in an indoor space but the other person isn’t willing to mask, I’ll suggest we walk around the art gallery. (I still wear my mask in the gallery.)
Unfortunately, these accommodations only maintain my existing social circle - they’re not helping me expand my circle.
I found an artist a couple of hours away who seemed open to offering art lessons while masked. I was hoping to rent a place near her studio to spend a weekend making art with her. But I haven’t yet been able to find COVID-cautious childcare to make that happen.
I feel like I’m in a never-ending loop. I need COVID-cautious friends so I can have help with childcare… I need COVID-cautious childcare so I can find friends…
In the meantime, I’ve been trying to nurture loose social ties. E.g. I go to the library once a week when it’s not too busy, and even though the library has self-checkouts, I visit the desk so I can chat with the librarians. I’ll ask them which books they’ve read lately and what they thought of those books. Many of my librarians are also writers, so I’ll ask if they’re working on any short stories.
These are some really solid suggestions, thank you! I have a space in my yard that could be made more weather protected. And I love your idea of leaning in to more loose social ties. And honestly it does help to know I'm not the only one trying to navigate this. ❤️
I think a lot of the answers here are really, really good. I'm also in a COLD place for lots of the year where I've had to work to make outdoor gatherings more feasible, and I like the idea of adding a covered area (even one of those portable ones?) and possibly heater.
There's always the balance of energy with everything else, too. I read a book a while back (can't remember which one!) that noted that one of the challenges of living with chronic illness and/or dynamic and/or invisible disabilities is that the effort it takes to explain oneself is emotional labour that already reduces the amount of energy we have for everything else.
This is one reason I'm so, so grateful when folks post in comment sections like this one, because it doesn't just let us resource-share, it also makes visible the realities we're living through for the community members in the comments section who aren't living with these particular challenges. And perhaps that will open more folks' eyes to what their friends / family members / community members are going through more locally, too, because sometimes the thing I most want is to not have to be the problem-solver. I would LOVE for more local friends to say, "Hey, we'd love to see you. Here are some ideas I had about how we could do this safely. Would they work for you?"
And I would also love to get better about doing this for folks in my circles whose challenges are different from mine. I love to think of our capacity to see and care for each other expanding a little bit every time AHP opens up comments and discussion. That makes me hopeful.
That's what pushed me to have the courage to comment and ask for suggestions - not just to get some tips but also to make this kind of struggle more visible to those without the direct lived experience. (Big thanks to AHP for curating a safe space to have these vulnerable conversations!)
And thank you for sharing the bit about emotional labor. I hadn't framed it that way for myself but it definitely rings true to my own experience!
Same boat, in NoCo, unfortunately I rarely have the energy to drive to Denver or I'd suggest something!
I recently got one of the home PCR tests so I can get real time covid status if someone visits. I haven't tested the social acceptance of it yet, so who knows. And it doesn't really address all the other bugs out there, but I'm not sure what else to do.
Lucira makes at at-home PCR test that also tests for flu. I haven't tried using it (or asking others to), but I did think about getting some. Per this Lifehacker writeup, it looks like it's accuracy isn't as food as some other home PCRs, but it would be convenient to just test once.
https://lifehacker.com/where-to-find-a-pcr-covid-test-and-why-you-need-one-1850779459
And thanks for mentioning this. I may refresh my test stock with some PCRs.
I remember reading this article when it was originally written…at the time, I was newly married without kids. Fast forward to today and I just gave birth to twins two weeks ago. To say that this piece resonates would be an understatement. The line around what parents with newborn babies need is so true! My husband and I don’t actually need help with the babies at the moment because they are currently on an endless loop of diaper changes, feeding and lots of sleeping. But we could use help with every other facet of life. We’ve been outsourcing a lot (Instacart, DoorDash, etc.) because while we have decent support systems, we haven’t figured out how to mobilize them for this particular time in our lives. As others have said, community is so necessary and yet the work of building and leveraging it is so hard.
Mama of twins here (my girls are now 24) sending love cause those early days are HARD and even friends with kids don’t always appreciate the intensity of life with TWO infants! Xo
Aw, thank you so much! Yes…the hardest and most demanding thing I have ever done in my life. Thank you for your support…really means a lot.
I have two young kids but most of my close friends from college/20s are child free and long distance. While sometimes it's hard to connect when our lives look so different day to day on the whole I'm really really grateful to have friends with the time and capacity to love me and my family so well. I've been touched when several have gone out of their way to travel long distance (in one case literally around the world!!) just to visit me and connect with my kids in person. I've tried to reciprocate by staying connected to them directly even when it's sporadic or there's only time for short conversations but also to intentionally help my kids feel connected to my friends, for example by having them record videos to say happy birthday, send art projects they make, or just showing them pictures regularly so they remember who these other adults are.
After one miserable nuclear family vacation, my partner and I decided to try inviting a child free friend on our summer vacations with our 2 kids and that has been such a joy for everyone. I hope to continue that until my kids are old enough for trips to actually feel like vacations again! :)
The core of my particular community comes from one of the last vestiges of "joiner culture" available to GenX folks - nightclubs and music scenes. Specifically, I started hanging out at goth / industrial / techno clubs in the 90s and 00s, made friends amongst the regulars and stayed friends long after those spaces got bought up to feed the never-ending hunger for gentrified condos. The thing that I liked about a subcultural club scene is that they were centered on music and not on the hookups. People watched out for each other, and being there was intrinsically low stakes. You could show up, chat with friends and spend time catching up or you could show up dance to a bunch of music, wave at people and keep the social interaction really light. Then, over weeks and months of continuously showing up, you'd find people that you vibed well with and that would become a community.
Then, as we aged up and transitioned from renters to homeowners, we'd help each other move, paint and decorate, and that became its own kind of community that lived beyond the club scene.
I don't go out as often as I used to, but I do think it's worth supporting small community venues like this to give other people their shot at finding community. Or, at least, a good night out with good music.