105 Comments
Nov 11, 2020Liked by Anne Helen Petersen

You know, I've been on a real tear lately with this idea of a budget being a moral document. Like, if you want to know what a family or a city or a country values, look at what they spend money on. What do they consider "essential"? What are they willing to cut out when times are lean? Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy, particularly when dealing with a household budget, but if we assume for the sake of argument that a given household is able to meet its basic needs, look at what they spend their "extra" money on. Maybe its hobbies or fancy coffee or a vacation. Those choices tell you what that person values, because even if we are assuming that basic needs are being met, money is usually finite. If I have $100 extra dollars this month, I can choose to spend it on a nice blanket or I can donate it to charity. Neither choice makes me a "good person" or a "bad person" but it does tell you what I value right now.

By the same token, when a town decides to close schools for children because covid cases are rising instead of closing bars, that tells you what the town values. Both choices are have costs, financial and otherwise. And both choices tell you what the town finds to be important. If we valued school, we would make it work.

So when I think about what we value as a culture, we clearly do not value women's time. Its like that saying about breastfeeding, "Breast-feeding is only free if a woman's time is worth nothing."

Indeed.

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Budget as moral document is a great framing. Thanks for this.

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Ditto. Agreeing. I love that concept.

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i like this comment!- minus the last line. Because the mother benefits from her time breastfeeding. I think this makes it seem like breastfeeding is a waste of her time and only beneficial to the baby. but that is false. she gets benefit as well.

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Yes, the mother benefits, society benefits, the child benefits, but we penalize women for it (through lost jobs, the motherhood penalty, and anti-mom bias), so we clearly don't value it. Even though it is valuable, we're not VALUING it, there's a difference.

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Respectfully, I got no benefits at all from the eight weeks I suffered through nursing. Unless you count suicidal depression a "benefit" which I don't.

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Agree! Although sometimes (often?) not having a budget means no money to budget with, not no morals.

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Of course, that's true. That's why I try to think of it specifying /disposable/ income. Having no disposable income to spend on anything at all doesn't mean you're immoral or have "bad" morals, it just means there's no moral judgement one way or another on the individual.

OTOH, being in a situation you cannot meet your basic needs is a moral problem for the society. A society that allows such a situation is an immoral society. The person who has no extra money is not at fault, but their society has decided that its more important to spend money on aircraft carriers than feeding children is a broken society who has shown by their budgeting what they value.

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Yes. So much this. I live in an extremely wealthy suburb that has no after-school programs (lots of activities, but no options for working moms), no school transportation, no lunch staff (it's all mom volunteers). This only makes sense if you value a woman's time at zero. Many professional moms that move here leave their careers because it is too hard to juggle kids' schedules and a demanding career.

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Towns couldn't close bars, or choose to cut the budget for bars instead of for schools. Bars aren't publicly funded, so local governments have limited authority to close them.

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Nov 11, 2020Liked by Anne Helen Petersen

All of this, so much. I was literally on a Zoom call with a group of friends last night talking about how close I am to either breaking or walking. I told them I’d been thinking about (probably mostly white) moms in the 60s and 70s who, once they felt they had some window to leave, they did, no matter how much they loved their spouses and kids. Probably the first time I’ve started to feel like I understand how trapped they felt and how few options they had. And no matter how aware I am that the problems I face (which are relatively far less than other moms face) are almost completely systemic, I don’t know what to do about them. Thank you to Jessica Calarco for your research. Reading this might help me not totally fall apart for a while longer 💗

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I kinda feel like my comment was self-indulgent. I’m sorry. It’s been a monthyear.

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Nov 12, 2020Liked by Anne Helen Petersen

"Monthyear" - the perfect word!

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Please don’t feel like that! (I say as I sit here deciding whether or not to delete my long, rambling, incoherent comment near the top of this thread. I am sorry. I don’t get out much.)

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You and me both!

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I love the empathy you are extending to mothers in the 1970s who had to get out. They often get skewered instead of understood.

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I'm not sure I would have thought of it if I hadn't read Claire Dederer's book "Poser" years ago, when my kids were babies. A lot of it is about her parents' divorce and its effect on her life, and brings in so many of the social and economic pressures people like her mother faced, and what it meant when they realized they could leave, which wasn't much of an option before. So I can't take credit for the thought; it's just that the visceral understanding finally came through!

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Poser was wonderful for me too. My parents divorced in the 1970s and I became a dedicated SAHM to try to reverse that effect. Took me years to discover the meaning behind the second wave of feminism.

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Stephen Jenkinson, a Canadian philosopher (closest description I can think of to what he does) who talks and writes a lot on death and dying, said this thing once about modern society forcing each generation to live with the unfinished business of previous generations. Glad to find another "Poser" reader! Most of my friends didn't like it. Not sure why it spoke to me exactly, but the whole struggle of motherhood (I'm a SAHM, too, but also a nearly full-time freelancer and the SAHM thing is only partly by choice due to my spouse traveling a lot for work) in there went to the heart of my own difficulties.

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100% on Poser. I'm a west coast idealistic home birthing breast feeding mother so I TOTALLY resonated with that book. Thanks for this tip on the Canadian philosopher. I think we're all trying to overcome the limits of our upbringing. What's missing in our culture is the understanding that that is NATURAL rather than something we see as due to damage.

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I think it was just all the yoga. I’m not as deeply into yoga as she was, but most of my friends are less so! I was also living in a deeply conservative town in upstate New York at the time and really missed the west coast culture you’re describing :)

Jenkinson’s big thing about generations is related to (I think) his ideas about the lack of elders and true elderhood in the dominant modern North American society. I don’t think I’d do a good job of explaining it (something like “white North Americans can’t face that they’ll die someday so fail to truly grow up” is related but *not* what he said). I find listening to his talks and interviews more accessible than reading his books.

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Nov 11, 2020Liked by Anne Helen Petersen

Articles like this one reinforce that not having children was the right decision for my partner and me. And I still feel guilt admitting this, even as someone who is less socially connected and hasn’t had to face overt pressure to have children. With the pandemic here, I am grateful every day to not be going through this with children. No idea how I would cope with worrying about their health and schooling, or manage financially, or divide up household and childcare tasks with my partner who doesn’t have the option to work from home.

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I get it. I'm a parent and obviously love my kid (isn't it weird that I am compelled to give this disclaimer? as though the thing I'm about to say, which is basically "parenting in a pandemic is hard!" is so fucking controversial?) but being a parent has made this pandemic a million times harder. Or, at least, a different kind of hard. I have a friend who is single and doesn't have kids. She lives alone. She feels very isolated. So her "hard" is of a different type than my "hard."

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If she was a single mom it would be worst of all. A good romantic relationship is a plus. Don't make it harder than it needs to be. Skip kids.

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I think everyone has their pressures, too. Parenting is its own particular hard at this time, but there’s also having older parents or just, as you mention, one of the many jobs that can’t be done from home, or chronic illness or who knows what else. Sending “try not to feel guilty” waves your way :)

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Yes!! This is a huge and difficult issue. One of my BFFs (we met as adults, but have known each other 20ish years) had always planned to have children. When it was time to do it (very intentionally, as she’s a lesbian) she started initiating more conversations about the decision to have children. I didn’t think it was fair of me to have an opinion beyond I’ll support you 100%, whatever you decide. It’s much easier to talk about how fucking hard it is now that she has kids. One of the few things that I did right with my children (now adults) is that I didn’t program them to have kids as my parents (especially my mother) programmed me for parenthood in the 60s and 70s. I love the fact that we can now speak openly about the ups and downs of parenting, without judgment. Women need to have these honest conversations more often!

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I would try to talk a woman if I had one out of trying for a kid. I am already 51, have genetically transmitted Asperger, and it is way too easy to be unplugged from employment to pay for kids who always have needs.

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The world has too many kids. That is why no one deals with the high functioning autistic ones.

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Except those who do…

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More power to you and your child free partner

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This entire interview is cutting and brilliant. It takes the entire patriarchal culture to isolate women and the entire patriarchal weight to crush them. As always, people don't need "tips and tricks" or those addictive fast-fixes...they just need resources and for the weight to be taken off their back for just a few damn minutes.

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Especially those whose job it is to “take the weight off” others!

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Nov 12, 2020Liked by Anne Helen Petersen

This article both validated parenting right now and filled me with rage. I've been thinking a lot about how women have been carving out a place for themselves in the workplace but not truly restructuring work to make it actually parenting friendly. A common theme to all of the "women can have it all!" talks that I've attended is that you should pay for people to do the work you don't have time to do. So we have hired childcare, and housekeepers, and house managers, etc (which is a whole other socioeconomic can of worms because who is doing this work). Now, all of a sudden, this isn't feasible. And everything comes crashing down because we never changed the system, we just figured out how to manipulate slightly.

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The book Utopia for Realists (by Rutger Bregman) noted that despite universal basic income being overwhelmingly popular in the US among both parties during the Nixon administration, it was ultimately shot down due in part to fears that it would make women too independent. Too independent. So the progressive countries in Europe forged on without us.

Studies have shown that UBI in fact strengthens relationships, and I believe this article gives that impression as well - regarding greater social support in general if not basic income specifically.

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UBI, as socialists know, is a neoliberal, capitalist dream. It extends the money system into every part of life. Far better would be universal basic services for everyone - free at the point of delivery, publicly owned and publicly funded. Take money out of society as much as is possible rather than commercialising everything.

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Would love to hear about the experiences of Black, Latina, Asian, and Native women, but this was a great read. Many of our problems are sociological not psychological in nature and it's great to see something that gets right at that.

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Agree! I’m glad she acknowledged they had a limited perspective of mostly white moms/families. I also wish they touched more on single/unpartnered mothers since there’s different limitations in support & survival on one income. But I loved this article/insight & could relate big time to the rock & hard place a lot of women find themselves in in our society.

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So I agree this feedback is mostly a white mum thing. commenting on what is a white mum experience that is largely not good at best for mum and kids. Since most things seem to be worse, economically and culturally for women of colour, I can only presume it is worse for women of colour during the pandemic. In general the whole idea of women supporting ALL social, economic, and familial networks all the time and even moreso during a pandemic sucks. Yet if one looks to most governing bodies and norms that benefit people, it does not reflect us at all. Not much has change since I grew up in the late sixties and early seventies, not for my daughter growing up in the nineties. I do know one thing for sure, I do not want my grand daughter to grow up like this in the 2020's. I would counsel her to support other women's choices, NOT marry, and pursue her own joy.

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Nov 12, 2020Liked by Anne Helen Petersen

This is a really important article, and super-validating to me as a full-time working mom (currently from home). This pandemic sucks!

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This is one of the best, most accessible things I have read explaining how social pressure enforces norms that harm us. I’m so grateful to read an expert admit that her own mother’s little comments make her doubt herself sometimes too. It’s amazing how, even when we know the problems are structural, it’s so easy to turn blame inward.

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I think there is a bigger story here. It is almost a trope to say that this is what mothers and women are going through. It is true. But I find the greater truth is that it is the experience of whomever in the relationship is burdened with the child care. This tends to be the person who is not the bread winner in the family. There are dad's going through much of this same dynamic, and that story goes unrecognized. That both undermines and isolates them, and fails to recognize progress that has been made in shifting dynamics at home and work. The moral truth seems to be that American society hates children, seeking only to provide for children with the least expenditure possible. This is why the police can afford the best and latest riot gear but kids have to buy their own school supplies.

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America hates dependents of any sort. It particularly punishes women and especially women of color because they are often in our charge. The SAHD is always brought up in these circumstances. It's ok to note that it affects women more. Caring for aging parents, aging pets, children - it's often the women. Not ALWAYS but very, very often. Care-taking is tedious, time-consuming, draining and extremely necessary.

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A cat is a good low maintenance friend and about all I can afford

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No one but me ever cared for any cat I had

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Agreed. Like I say below, a budget is a moral document. It shows what we (don't) value.

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Loved this article! Forwarding to friends and family - "you are not alone".

I'm a business owner - I've tried to communicate to my team that it's okay to perform differently during the pandemic, and for folks working from home, they may need more flexibility and understanding regarding meetings / deadlines, etc. My primary focus has been to keep our team that needs to remain on-site safe (manufacturing environment). I'd love to hear thoughts on what we can do as business owners to support our teams, and especially working parents.

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I think this is true, but I think it’s missing a big component, at least one which I’ve experienced which is the impact of globalization on white collar work. I’ve held a well paying job for 10 yrs and each year there are more layoffs and more jobs shipped overseas. People are helicopter parenting their kids because they want them to get into ivy league schools as a way to maintain their socioeconomic status. Good paying jobs are disappearing and staying in the middle class is becoming more fraught. White men (and our partners) aren’t singularly to blame for this.

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I don't think anyone is saying it it is the fault entirely of white men. Putting my sociologist hat on, it is important to acknowledge that explaining why something is happening isn't about blaming a specific party or group. It is just about understanding why (or, in this case, what exactly) something is happening. It is almost certainly true that this dynamic is playing out in these families due to the economic pressures you mention, but that doesn't mean the description is invalid.

Its like I always say to my students: an explanation is not an excuse. We can still make moral judgements about people's choices, but we need to acknowledge that they happen in a context. We can understand while not excusing.

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“Putting my sociologist hat on, it is important to acknowledge that explaining why something is happening isn't about blaming a specific party or group.”

I agree, but my point is – I don’t think the root cause has been adequately researched and discussed in the article. It talks about the symptoms of the problem, not the root of the problem.

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Sure, but this is an interview with the author of a series of academic articles. The academic articles will almost certainly spend more time/energy on the root of the problem. And one of the most annoying things about academic articles (she says, as an author of several) is that they are often hyper focused on one specific thing while glossing over the rest because the assumption is that other articles will student/describe/explain the rest. So its never enough to read one study, or even read the work of one researcher. To get the full picture you have to read a billion articles.

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Jan 10, 2023·edited Jan 10, 2023

Anyone who got jabbed deserves to have their professional license revoked. That includes Trump, Desantis, and this satanic witch posing as a sociologist. You wore the mask in a leadership position, then you deserve to be homeless or worse. Nuremberg Trails 2.0 for the Jab Nazis!!! You committed crimes against Humanity that would even make Hitler blush, yet you show zero remorse. You are evil incarnate. Innocent People were counting on you, but you enabled liers, cheats, and thieves. You killed science, and it will take decades to rebuild trust with academia, because evil disgusting slime balls like you became corrupt long long ago. Shame on you. Do the world a favor and retire. Maybe get a real job instead of destroying society?

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much appreciated. Clear and compelling account of the sociological imagination. And this: "What I can’t stop thinking about is how our lack of a social safety net is putting women’s health and relationships at risk. So much of the public conversation has focused on the women who are dropping out of the workforce. Those stories are important, but to me they signal the centrality of capitalism in all of our public concerns." Yes.

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Thank you for this great article. It feels like American capitalism and inequality make it really challenging to achieve the solidarity necessary to create a society that values nurturing relationships and care. But I'm hopeful that as more of us connect over our shared sense that something is deeply wrong (and motivated by large forces like climate change and pandemics) this can change in our lifetimes. It would be interesting to start to ask what it looks like if we act in ways to promote a different set of norms than those Dr. Calarco fingers as putting unfair pressure on women. What might we do in even very small ways in our work, home and social lives; our virtual and our in-person lives; to put less pressure on ourselves as women and as people?

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Thanks for including a description of the methodology behind this research. It's rarely explained how these kinds of data are collected and I think it's helpful for readers to have this context. (speaking as a museum experience evaluator who does this kind of work and has to present data and findings to colleagues/clients in a way that will be understood and used to create change)

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