Anne Helen, this shit slaps! I'm currently reading "Veil & Vow" by Aneeka Ayanna Henderson, which is about marriage in modern Black culture, and also thinking about my own family's participation in Black Southern debutante balls. My mom picked the wrong daughter to be in the Delta Sigma Theta Jabberwock Cotillion because my sister was definitely not the right fit for that, haha.
The one time I ever saw my grandmother blush was when someone asked whether she had been a debutante. She had not- grew up on a farm in rural NC with 8 siblings, didn’t go to a restaurant until she was 18 or 19, worked in a hosiery mill for decades- but the idea she might have been was so incredibly flattering to her sensibilities.
How can we think about the debutante thing as a particularly Christian ideal? I don't know what goes on in other religions, but speaking as a Jewish girl, Jewish American culture has nothing similar, except maybe the contemporary bat mitzvah party, which in certain communities is heavily tied to conspicuous consumption. But the bat mitzvah has (I think) a completely different history as a religious ritual that entwines with the feminist movement in the US, says nothing really about eligibility for marriage, and is of course for much younger girls (much to unpack there about who gets to be a "girl" and for how long). Debutante balls in the US have always seemed to me to be very tied to Christian traditions and understandings about marriage and power, and I'm wondering where other religious practices come into it-- and whether the debut is just yet another way of maintaining Christian supremacy among the US elite.
Incredible read and can’t wait to read the book! Anne Helen is right, your writing is beautiful and sharp.
Your discussion of performative leisure made me think of Golden Goose shoes. Certainly the eye watering price tag for Golden Goose emphasizes both the “performative” and the “leisure” aspects of their value as status symbols.
I feel like shoes have a social significance that other couture accessories, like purses, have not achieved. For one thing, they are something you walk on! They are impossible to wear without actually getting them worn. The fact that Golden Goose sneakers imitate many older styles (down to the scuffs) of far cheaper sneakers feels so visceral for me, as someone who grew up wearing the older and cheaper styles. One of my mom’s most powerful memories from growing up extremely poor in Raleigh, NC, has to do with her generation’s Golden Goose equivalents. She still vividly remembers the Debs that went to her high school who all had pairs and pairs of Pappagallo ballet flats in colors to match every outfit. I have been trying to find out how much these shoes cost in the 1960s but I haven’t found a price…suffice to say, to my mom they were dazzlingly expensive. The fact that the Debs had pairs enough to match their outfits was beyond the realm of possibility.
The specialization of shoes is also interesting. I think something could be said for the fact that Golden Gooses are sneakers, rather than Manolo Blahniks (for those of us in the Sex and the City generation). Manolo Blahniks told us viewers that you were headed to a cocktail party at the Governor’s mansion…sneakers say you are going to put gas in the car. I am sure there is an argument to be made about the desirability of looking like an off-duty ballet dancer within the 1960s Southern country-club-attending, debutante world.
Anyway, I would love to hear your take on shoes! Or any take, for that matter.
Two things. AHP, did you read Walter Johnson’s book on the history of racial violence in St. Louis? That Veiled Prophet horror is of a piece with it.
Second, that story you linked to about beer dads reminds me of a joke I never get tired of. Q: Why do you always take two Baptists fishing with you? A: if you take only one he’ll drink all your beer.
Oh wow this was such a fantastic and devastating read. I felt the 'existential exhaustion' question deep in my bones.
I would just like to know a bit more about the response to the book. Kristen mentioned "over-researching" out of fear people would underestimate/minimize how crucial these events and themes were through modern history. It seems so obvious to me how the whole debutante package represents a convergence of markets, law, gender, race, class, and (basically) power. Please tell me people haven't been dismissive!
Wow. Definitely putting the book on my list. So many questions, but I’m wondering about this culture and how debutantes reinforced gender roles at the same time. I’ve been reading about the racist origins of the strict gender binary and it seems like it developed at the same time.
This was another fantastic read. As someone who grew up in St. Louis, not wealthy but in proximity to those who were (one of the Veiled Prophet Queens of Love and Beauty was a classmate of mine), I have been long fascinated by debutante culture, though never once have I wished I could have taken part in it. It's so weird and foreign to me that in our day and age such things can exist and be a big deal. This overt and unapologetic display of white supremacy and aristocratic pretensions has always struck me as out of step with modern culture, but it perseveres all the same.
This article was also timely as I recently read "How to Be Posh" on Non-Boring History here on Substack - https://annettelaing.substack.com/p/being-posh . Annette discusses some of the same societal pressures and issues but from a different angle (she starts with George Washington!).
Hi Kristen, excited to read the book! I am interested in how your inquiry into this subject developed over time and what your research process was like.
"The Kardashians have debutante roots, but I think they’re most like the 1930s debutantes like Brenda Frazier" - Wow. I just read about Brenda, and saw the photo of her taken later in life by Dianne Arbus. What a fascinating and tragic figure.
ONE GIANT LYDIA
I loved this interview so much and just ordered the book.
Anne Helen, this shit slaps! I'm currently reading "Veil & Vow" by Aneeka Ayanna Henderson, which is about marriage in modern Black culture, and also thinking about my own family's participation in Black Southern debutante balls. My mom picked the wrong daughter to be in the Delta Sigma Theta Jabberwock Cotillion because my sister was definitely not the right fit for that, haha.
Loved this interview and your observation about the Kardashians as modern-day Bennets.
And that boarding school term "the girls who get to be pretty" is perfect.
Wow! What a great interview! I felt, not for the first time, there is just so much more to know. Just ordered the book - thank you!
The one time I ever saw my grandmother blush was when someone asked whether she had been a debutante. She had not- grew up on a farm in rural NC with 8 siblings, didn’t go to a restaurant until she was 18 or 19, worked in a hosiery mill for decades- but the idea she might have been was so incredibly flattering to her sensibilities.
How can we think about the debutante thing as a particularly Christian ideal? I don't know what goes on in other religions, but speaking as a Jewish girl, Jewish American culture has nothing similar, except maybe the contemporary bat mitzvah party, which in certain communities is heavily tied to conspicuous consumption. But the bat mitzvah has (I think) a completely different history as a religious ritual that entwines with the feminist movement in the US, says nothing really about eligibility for marriage, and is of course for much younger girls (much to unpack there about who gets to be a "girl" and for how long). Debutante balls in the US have always seemed to me to be very tied to Christian traditions and understandings about marriage and power, and I'm wondering where other religious practices come into it-- and whether the debut is just yet another way of maintaining Christian supremacy among the US elite.
This is fascinating and I love it and I really need to see if my library has this book!
Incredible read and can’t wait to read the book! Anne Helen is right, your writing is beautiful and sharp.
Your discussion of performative leisure made me think of Golden Goose shoes. Certainly the eye watering price tag for Golden Goose emphasizes both the “performative” and the “leisure” aspects of their value as status symbols.
I feel like shoes have a social significance that other couture accessories, like purses, have not achieved. For one thing, they are something you walk on! They are impossible to wear without actually getting them worn. The fact that Golden Goose sneakers imitate many older styles (down to the scuffs) of far cheaper sneakers feels so visceral for me, as someone who grew up wearing the older and cheaper styles. One of my mom’s most powerful memories from growing up extremely poor in Raleigh, NC, has to do with her generation’s Golden Goose equivalents. She still vividly remembers the Debs that went to her high school who all had pairs and pairs of Pappagallo ballet flats in colors to match every outfit. I have been trying to find out how much these shoes cost in the 1960s but I haven’t found a price…suffice to say, to my mom they were dazzlingly expensive. The fact that the Debs had pairs enough to match their outfits was beyond the realm of possibility.
The specialization of shoes is also interesting. I think something could be said for the fact that Golden Gooses are sneakers, rather than Manolo Blahniks (for those of us in the Sex and the City generation). Manolo Blahniks told us viewers that you were headed to a cocktail party at the Governor’s mansion…sneakers say you are going to put gas in the car. I am sure there is an argument to be made about the desirability of looking like an off-duty ballet dancer within the 1960s Southern country-club-attending, debutante world.
Anyway, I would love to hear your take on shoes! Or any take, for that matter.
Two things. AHP, did you read Walter Johnson’s book on the history of racial violence in St. Louis? That Veiled Prophet horror is of a piece with it.
Second, that story you linked to about beer dads reminds me of a joke I never get tired of. Q: Why do you always take two Baptists fishing with you? A: if you take only one he’ll drink all your beer.
Oh wow this was such a fantastic and devastating read. I felt the 'existential exhaustion' question deep in my bones.
I would just like to know a bit more about the response to the book. Kristen mentioned "over-researching" out of fear people would underestimate/minimize how crucial these events and themes were through modern history. It seems so obvious to me how the whole debutante package represents a convergence of markets, law, gender, race, class, and (basically) power. Please tell me people haven't been dismissive!
Wow. Definitely putting the book on my list. So many questions, but I’m wondering about this culture and how debutantes reinforced gender roles at the same time. I’ve been reading about the racist origins of the strict gender binary and it seems like it developed at the same time.
This was another fantastic read. As someone who grew up in St. Louis, not wealthy but in proximity to those who were (one of the Veiled Prophet Queens of Love and Beauty was a classmate of mine), I have been long fascinated by debutante culture, though never once have I wished I could have taken part in it. It's so weird and foreign to me that in our day and age such things can exist and be a big deal. This overt and unapologetic display of white supremacy and aristocratic pretensions has always struck me as out of step with modern culture, but it perseveres all the same.
This article was also timely as I recently read "How to Be Posh" on Non-Boring History here on Substack - https://annettelaing.substack.com/p/being-posh . Annette discusses some of the same societal pressures and issues but from a different angle (she starts with George Washington!).
Anyway, this was a great interview. Thanks!
Thanks for
Kristen, I just had a flashback to that scene from the debutante ball in the latest Borat movie. Did you see it, and did it make you cackle?
Hi Kristen, excited to read the book! I am interested in how your inquiry into this subject developed over time and what your research process was like.
So fascinating, thank you! I appreciate her unvarnished opinions and thorough research. Wow.
"The Kardashians have debutante roots, but I think they’re most like the 1930s debutantes like Brenda Frazier" - Wow. I just read about Brenda, and saw the photo of her taken later in life by Dianne Arbus. What a fascinating and tragic figure.