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The major stumbling block for so many of these institutions is the failure to truly grapple with and atone for the abuse of children and come up with structures that would ensure accountability going forward. At a root level, how does one trust his or her children to a church that put the institution before a child’s well-being? How do you engage with that institution as a family? I grieve so much for what the Catholic Church took from me & my relationship with God and I was not victimized. I know that story is not unique to Catholicism. I had found a new Episcopal church in early 2020 but it didn’t feel like home.
A huge, huge, HUGE point. How can an institution be accountable *for anything* if it cannot be accountable for its complacent role in the abuse of children?
It's not easy to give up one's religion when they believe that the core of that religion (sinners removed) is still truth and/or holds family and life traditions.
As someone who grew up Catholic in an area of the northeast where the options for religious affiliation were basically Catholic, Jewish, and other I’m always a little confused by things like this that frame “the Christian Church” as apparently excluding the largest single Christian denomination in the country. Relevant here because Catholicism is still quite politically diverse, has long mixed some social conservatism (on abortion, for instance) with some cultural liberalism (on labor issues, for instance), and likewise has a long history of people being members in more or less good standing at wildly different levels of observance (I had relatives that went to church twice a year and relatives that went to church twice a week, this did not make my Catholic family particularly unique and they all went to the same church). You just need to look at the last two popes to see that the church is a pretty big tent on at least some issues—likewise among US Catholic universities there are some that are notoriously liberal some that are quite the opposite, complete with campus priests to match. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the church is quite international and is not particularly hung up on whatever is dividing the US political system, or the fact that the church has a formal way for teachings to change (very slowly) over time (Catholics got on board with evolution at least by the 60s while evangelicals seem like they’ll be fighting about that forever), but something about it seems different. Anyway, I don’t have any greater point here, I certainly wouldn’t say I recommend joining the church that I myself left behind, but the more I read about the alternatives the more I can see some of its virtues.
Thank you so much for bringing up this point — I had a graf in here trying to do a bit more with the different wings of mainline churches, Catholics, LDS, how evangelicalism is and is not infusing these various elements, and maybe should have kept it in, but here we are in the comments and: I think that there are arms of the Catholic church that, as you point out, are really trying to do this important and reparative work, much of which is a continuance of the work they've been doing for some time, whether in regards to labor history or the "seamless garment" or anti-poverty work...and then a lot of churches that are rejecting that work, and the Pope's teachings, and kinda keeping mum of social justice just generally, and bitter about the continued fall-out from the molestation lawsuits, and losing buildings, and trying to figure out what ministry will look like moving forward, or if they can keep schools running if there aren't nuns to teach there for basically nothing. There are a lot of nuances but also a lot of similarities, if that makes sense.
The use of "Christian" = evangelical always sticks in my formerly-Catholic craw too. I miss the liturgical year, and the lefty social justice Catholicism I grew up in, but at least here in Livingston the parish is verging on wackadoo-let's-go-back-to-Latin-the-Pope-is-a-pretender right wingnuttery. So that's out. Only Mass I go to these days is funerals as I'm of an age where we're burying my parent's generation. For my beloved old ladies, I'll fly home for Mass at St. Mary's.
Until the Church does some serious atoning for molestation and their role in colonial genocide, well ... I mean, who can take communion from the hands of those perpetrators?
Thank you for writing this...I could write an essay in response! I think the point about what this means for Christian values is very interesting--Jesus and John Wayne makes a compelling argument that Trump/Republicanism/etc actually follows logically from the values of Evangelical culture (as opposed to the theology of any church/denomination). Having grown up with the same pov you describe, that there is "secular culture" and there is Christianity, even realizing the existence of Evangelical culture was eye opening. I haven't read it yet, but Where Goodness Still Grows by Amy Petersen is supposed to be an attempt to reclaim the values of evangelicalism from how they've been distorted or used maliciously. But for me and many others, as you wrote about, I think it's too late to find that in the church.
I have not read Glennon's books but I briefly followed her on Instagram before quickly realising her content was not for me. The constant recording of every inane conversation with her wife... Give me strength. I just don't have patience for that. I have unfollowed Busy Phillips and Chrissy T for similar reasons. Maybe the pandemic has made me cranky! I did hear Glennon interviewed on Armchair Expert and I really didn't see the big deal in what she was saying. So many of these beloved thought leaders are really not saying anything profound at all. I don't mean to sound totally negative against her. She and Abby certainly seem to want to do good things and use their voices, but none of it is profound or deserving of the adoration she receives, in my opinion.
Unfollowing people whose content is not for you is a great practice—not cranky at all! Pruning my Twitter feed was great for my mental health, and I think most people could benefit from it.
I'm very late in this response, but I recently actually encountered Doyle (on Brene Brown's podcast) after only having vaguely heard about her before and found it remarkable--as you say--just how unprofound or groundbreaking what she's saying is.
But I think what we're seeing is pretty basic feminist ideas being presented in a way that feels non-threatening (and not overtly feminist) to a crowd of women who wouldn't touch feminism with a ten-foot pole. So they're having the same consciousness raising we all did five, ten, twenty years ago, but they're having it now, and with much milder pieces because their starting point is so much further to the right.
I was raised in a very reformed (Bay Area hippie) Jewish household, regularly attending Sunday school, temple, and Jewish sleep-away camps. As an adult it's almost impossible to imagine belonging to a temple again, or having my daughter participate in a religious community. I do however, miss the sermons. My rabbi when I was young was really smart and I loved hearing him speak. I think of his sermons as an early introduction to quiet contemplation of the biggest ideas. In a life without organized religion I have to generate a time and a space for those big thoughts. I walk, or I talk with my closest friends. I seek out time in nature. More and more I realize that more than anything, it's the ritual that's missing in my life. Throughout the pandemic the absence of ritual has been so painful. Along with a return/strengthening of community, I know that's the piece I want to make space for in my life. Maybe something akin to a Quaker meeting. I dunno. Let me know if any of you have any great ideas.
The Unitarian Univeralists may be a place to look. I was raised atheist, but after my family moved to a new city in the South, I wanted to find a community that shared my values, and a religious organization seemed like the best way to do it. I find that the ministers at our UU community frequently challenge my thinking, and have a strong focus on racial and economic justice, gender issue, and environmental issues.
I deeply miss being able to go in person every week. I’m participating in our online events, but it is not the same. The UUs tend to be pretty ritual light, but there is enough to make it feel like a religious organization rather than a social club.
One of my partners (in a medical practice) was raised Catholic, now belongs to a Unitarian congregation. She told me that a Unitarian is an atheist with kids.
Another UU checking in. A lot of UUs are atheists but a large percentage are theists (including me). It's great to be in a community where it openly doesn't matter.
I"m super curious about UUs. Unfortunately I now live in a community that is an hour and a half away from the closest congregation. Might check out a zoom service tomorrow though!
As a highly involved hippie/radical Jew, from Jewish and Catholic parents, I'm sort of surprised you wouldn't be interested in trying out a synagogue/temple. If you live in a major US metro there are definitely Jewish communities that are going to match your values and make space for the big thoughts, the ritual, and the loving duties of community. Why not check out that kind of Jewish space? I find Quaker spaces both very spiritually lovely and also very culturally white and Christian. Nothing wrong with that though.
I don't think what these women really want is going to be church. I'm a millennial with an infant and have attended an Episcopal church for a few years. The denomination that is rapidly dying despite embracing the LGBT community. We have women pastors and gay bishops. We're losing members so rapidly we probably won't exist in 20 years. the reality of life on the ground in a small Episcopal church is not glamorous. It's not all about self actualization or social justice. It's the old woman in charge of Altar Guild yelling at you because you arranged the flowers wrong. It's talking with a sweet young woman at coffee hour, noticing the interest the homeless guy is taking in her, and wondering if he's preying on her or if you're reading into things. It's attending a talk about opioid abuse in your neighborhood and hearing older members of the congregation suggest that Marijuana is the gateway drug. It's difficult and ugly and not fun, sexy, or cute. Being in communion with others - which is church - is nothing at all like commenting on an Instagram post. Clarity purpose strength and care are hard to build and the great thing about influencers is that you don't have to lift a finger to FEEL a certain way about yourself. I'm not saying it's not worth it but there's a lot of invisible grunt work that goes into building community and a lot of people - including myself- are out of practice.
I highly recommend "One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America" for a very in-depth understanding of how business interests aligned in creating conservative Evangelicalism.
I had no idea that you'd written the Jubilee piece, that's fantastic! I remember talking about it with a like-minded pastor here in Little Rock.
There is this thing that happens that I think a lot of us have experienced but don't talk about all that much. As we go through this process of unhooking ourselves from our past culture and identity, we realize that all the things our friends and family said about "those hell-bound Democrats" (or whatever pejorative is used) now apply to ourselves and that all of our support structures truly believe that we are some level of evil. I know that was devastating to myself, I have no idea how someone like Hatmaker or Doyle worked through it.
It is kind of fun to sit around with other ex-vangelicals and karaoke to some DC Talk or OC Supertones or Michael W. Smith on our phones, though.
I'm wrestling with the realization that I am not going back to the kind of church I grew up in ever. It's been ten years, but realizing that door is closed to me is a thing that doesn't stop being painful. I keep trying to be an Episcopalian and find myself running aground on the problem of "The congregations I feel comfortable for identity reasons in aren't Jesus-y enough for me." My best friend (and plague housemate) attends a perfectly lovely progressive Presbyterian church, and every time I went with her in the before time or now catch part of a service over Zoom, I find myself twitchy with an awful mix of nostalgia and grief and hurt.
I'm a few years younger than you but oh yes I remember all of the jargon - "be in the world but not of the world" and "going secular". I fell into evangelical Christianity during the Dubya years, so I can't say what it was like before then, but I had a front row seat to the affirmation of the shift to the right during the Obama/McCain campaign. It didn't matter to them if Obama was a Christian - it was the "wrong" Christianity! Back then they wouldn't say it was because of racism, but now with Rev. Senator Warnock they do - the "problem" is that "black liberation theology"! I became the "token Democrat" amongst my church friends until I left for good in Summer 2015.
I always called what I went through a "faith shift" until I heard the term "deconstruction." I'm annoyed that evangelicals have co-opted the word "deconstruction" because it's the perfect word for leaving toxic, institutional faith behind. No, it doesn't have to end in leaving the very core beliefs in Christianity behind, but it's definitely about leaving the mainstream version behind.
The need to be Republican while being evangelical goes back further than the mid early 2000s. The pressure was on even when I was in college in 1979 (ages ago). Read Jesus and John Wayne for a comprehensive history of how conservative politics and evangelical faith merged to be the force they are today on the right.
Yes, absolutely! I'm talking more about when it reached its full realization of alignment, but you're very correct that a lot of this goes back to the '60s and '70s and shifts around the tenets of conservatism at that time. I would've gone into more depth here but didn't want to go too far afield on this one.
I loved this piece and also as a (practicing) Jew I want to hear more reflection or analysis from Christians about the specifics of their culture and why it leads to these particular dynamics.
From the outside it seems like a lot of (white) Protestant, evangelical Christian culture is driven by these intense either/or dynamics - in/out, fallen/saved, good/bad, faith/doubt, staying/leaving, etc. I'm no expert but in my own journey through and in other spiritual, faith, and culture traditions, it seems like these dichotomies are not so stark or central. Given that white Protestant Christianity is the hegemonic culture in the US I would especially like to see more thoughtful writing about how its preoccupations are imposed or leak out onto the rest of us.
The major stumbling block for so many of these institutions is the failure to truly grapple with and atone for the abuse of children and come up with structures that would ensure accountability going forward. At a root level, how does one trust his or her children to a church that put the institution before a child’s well-being? How do you engage with that institution as a family? I grieve so much for what the Catholic Church took from me & my relationship with God and I was not victimized. I know that story is not unique to Catholicism. I had found a new Episcopal church in early 2020 but it didn’t feel like home.
A huge, huge, HUGE point. How can an institution be accountable *for anything* if it cannot be accountable for its complacent role in the abuse of children?
More than anything, this kind of thing makes me suspicious of anyone who hasn't renounced their affiliation with the Church.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/panelists-call-reckoning-abuse-native-american-children-catholic-boarding
It's not easy to give up one's religion when they believe that the core of that religion (sinners removed) is still truth and/or holds family and life traditions.
I totally get it. It's not so different from the "proud to be American" crowd in light of pretty much how terrible the USA is and has always been.
And this is why we love Culture Study 😘👌🏾
As someone who grew up Catholic in an area of the northeast where the options for religious affiliation were basically Catholic, Jewish, and other I’m always a little confused by things like this that frame “the Christian Church” as apparently excluding the largest single Christian denomination in the country. Relevant here because Catholicism is still quite politically diverse, has long mixed some social conservatism (on abortion, for instance) with some cultural liberalism (on labor issues, for instance), and likewise has a long history of people being members in more or less good standing at wildly different levels of observance (I had relatives that went to church twice a year and relatives that went to church twice a week, this did not make my Catholic family particularly unique and they all went to the same church). You just need to look at the last two popes to see that the church is a pretty big tent on at least some issues—likewise among US Catholic universities there are some that are notoriously liberal some that are quite the opposite, complete with campus priests to match. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the church is quite international and is not particularly hung up on whatever is dividing the US political system, or the fact that the church has a formal way for teachings to change (very slowly) over time (Catholics got on board with evolution at least by the 60s while evangelicals seem like they’ll be fighting about that forever), but something about it seems different. Anyway, I don’t have any greater point here, I certainly wouldn’t say I recommend joining the church that I myself left behind, but the more I read about the alternatives the more I can see some of its virtues.
Thank you so much for bringing up this point — I had a graf in here trying to do a bit more with the different wings of mainline churches, Catholics, LDS, how evangelicalism is and is not infusing these various elements, and maybe should have kept it in, but here we are in the comments and: I think that there are arms of the Catholic church that, as you point out, are really trying to do this important and reparative work, much of which is a continuance of the work they've been doing for some time, whether in regards to labor history or the "seamless garment" or anti-poverty work...and then a lot of churches that are rejecting that work, and the Pope's teachings, and kinda keeping mum of social justice just generally, and bitter about the continued fall-out from the molestation lawsuits, and losing buildings, and trying to figure out what ministry will look like moving forward, or if they can keep schools running if there aren't nuns to teach there for basically nothing. There are a lot of nuances but also a lot of similarities, if that makes sense.
The use of "Christian" = evangelical always sticks in my formerly-Catholic craw too. I miss the liturgical year, and the lefty social justice Catholicism I grew up in, but at least here in Livingston the parish is verging on wackadoo-let's-go-back-to-Latin-the-Pope-is-a-pretender right wingnuttery. So that's out. Only Mass I go to these days is funerals as I'm of an age where we're burying my parent's generation. For my beloved old ladies, I'll fly home for Mass at St. Mary's.
Until the Church does some serious atoning for molestation and their role in colonial genocide, well ... I mean, who can take communion from the hands of those perpetrators?
Thank you for writing this...I could write an essay in response! I think the point about what this means for Christian values is very interesting--Jesus and John Wayne makes a compelling argument that Trump/Republicanism/etc actually follows logically from the values of Evangelical culture (as opposed to the theology of any church/denomination). Having grown up with the same pov you describe, that there is "secular culture" and there is Christianity, even realizing the existence of Evangelical culture was eye opening. I haven't read it yet, but Where Goodness Still Grows by Amy Petersen is supposed to be an attempt to reclaim the values of evangelicalism from how they've been distorted or used maliciously. But for me and many others, as you wrote about, I think it's too late to find that in the church.
I have not read Glennon's books but I briefly followed her on Instagram before quickly realising her content was not for me. The constant recording of every inane conversation with her wife... Give me strength. I just don't have patience for that. I have unfollowed Busy Phillips and Chrissy T for similar reasons. Maybe the pandemic has made me cranky! I did hear Glennon interviewed on Armchair Expert and I really didn't see the big deal in what she was saying. So many of these beloved thought leaders are really not saying anything profound at all. I don't mean to sound totally negative against her. She and Abby certainly seem to want to do good things and use their voices, but none of it is profound or deserving of the adoration she receives, in my opinion.
Unfollowing people whose content is not for you is a great practice—not cranky at all! Pruning my Twitter feed was great for my mental health, and I think most people could benefit from it.
I'm very late in this response, but I recently actually encountered Doyle (on Brene Brown's podcast) after only having vaguely heard about her before and found it remarkable--as you say--just how unprofound or groundbreaking what she's saying is.
But I think what we're seeing is pretty basic feminist ideas being presented in a way that feels non-threatening (and not overtly feminist) to a crowd of women who wouldn't touch feminism with a ten-foot pole. So they're having the same consciousness raising we all did five, ten, twenty years ago, but they're having it now, and with much milder pieces because their starting point is so much further to the right.
I was raised in a very reformed (Bay Area hippie) Jewish household, regularly attending Sunday school, temple, and Jewish sleep-away camps. As an adult it's almost impossible to imagine belonging to a temple again, or having my daughter participate in a religious community. I do however, miss the sermons. My rabbi when I was young was really smart and I loved hearing him speak. I think of his sermons as an early introduction to quiet contemplation of the biggest ideas. In a life without organized religion I have to generate a time and a space for those big thoughts. I walk, or I talk with my closest friends. I seek out time in nature. More and more I realize that more than anything, it's the ritual that's missing in my life. Throughout the pandemic the absence of ritual has been so painful. Along with a return/strengthening of community, I know that's the piece I want to make space for in my life. Maybe something akin to a Quaker meeting. I dunno. Let me know if any of you have any great ideas.
The Unitarian Univeralists may be a place to look. I was raised atheist, but after my family moved to a new city in the South, I wanted to find a community that shared my values, and a religious organization seemed like the best way to do it. I find that the ministers at our UU community frequently challenge my thinking, and have a strong focus on racial and economic justice, gender issue, and environmental issues.
I deeply miss being able to go in person every week. I’m participating in our online events, but it is not the same. The UUs tend to be pretty ritual light, but there is enough to make it feel like a religious organization rather than a social club.
One of my partners (in a medical practice) was raised Catholic, now belongs to a Unitarian congregation. She told me that a Unitarian is an atheist with kids.
Another UU checking in. A lot of UUs are atheists but a large percentage are theists (including me). It's great to be in a community where it openly doesn't matter.
I"m super curious about UUs. Unfortunately I now live in a community that is an hour and a half away from the closest congregation. Might check out a zoom service tomorrow though!
As a highly involved hippie/radical Jew, from Jewish and Catholic parents, I'm sort of surprised you wouldn't be interested in trying out a synagogue/temple. If you live in a major US metro there are definitely Jewish communities that are going to match your values and make space for the big thoughts, the ritual, and the loving duties of community. Why not check out that kind of Jewish space? I find Quaker spaces both very spiritually lovely and also very culturally white and Christian. Nothing wrong with that though.
I don't think what these women really want is going to be church. I'm a millennial with an infant and have attended an Episcopal church for a few years. The denomination that is rapidly dying despite embracing the LGBT community. We have women pastors and gay bishops. We're losing members so rapidly we probably won't exist in 20 years. the reality of life on the ground in a small Episcopal church is not glamorous. It's not all about self actualization or social justice. It's the old woman in charge of Altar Guild yelling at you because you arranged the flowers wrong. It's talking with a sweet young woman at coffee hour, noticing the interest the homeless guy is taking in her, and wondering if he's preying on her or if you're reading into things. It's attending a talk about opioid abuse in your neighborhood and hearing older members of the congregation suggest that Marijuana is the gateway drug. It's difficult and ugly and not fun, sexy, or cute. Being in communion with others - which is church - is nothing at all like commenting on an Instagram post. Clarity purpose strength and care are hard to build and the great thing about influencers is that you don't have to lift a finger to FEEL a certain way about yourself. I'm not saying it's not worth it but there's a lot of invisible grunt work that goes into building community and a lot of people - including myself- are out of practice.
I highly recommend "One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America" for a very in-depth understanding of how business interests aligned in creating conservative Evangelicalism.
$31,050!! oh my god
!
"Stomach punch" indeed
My jaw truly dropped!!
I had no idea that you'd written the Jubilee piece, that's fantastic! I remember talking about it with a like-minded pastor here in Little Rock.
There is this thing that happens that I think a lot of us have experienced but don't talk about all that much. As we go through this process of unhooking ourselves from our past culture and identity, we realize that all the things our friends and family said about "those hell-bound Democrats" (or whatever pejorative is used) now apply to ourselves and that all of our support structures truly believe that we are some level of evil. I know that was devastating to myself, I have no idea how someone like Hatmaker or Doyle worked through it.
It is kind of fun to sit around with other ex-vangelicals and karaoke to some DC Talk or OC Supertones or Michael W. Smith on our phones, though.
"I saw a man with tat on his big fat belly
It wiggled around like marmalade jelly
It took me a while to catch what it said
'Cause I had to match the rhythm of his belly wit' my head
"Jesus Saves" is what it raved in a typical tattoo green
He stood on a box in the middle of the city and he claimed he had a dream"
I couldn't resist, lolllllll
What will people doooooooooo, oh! oh! oh!
I just searched "Jesus Saves belly tattoo" and I'm confused by the amount of Bieber in the results, tbh.
I'm wrestling with the realization that I am not going back to the kind of church I grew up in ever. It's been ten years, but realizing that door is closed to me is a thing that doesn't stop being painful. I keep trying to be an Episcopalian and find myself running aground on the problem of "The congregations I feel comfortable for identity reasons in aren't Jesus-y enough for me." My best friend (and plague housemate) attends a perfectly lovely progressive Presbyterian church, and every time I went with her in the before time or now catch part of a service over Zoom, I find myself twitchy with an awful mix of nostalgia and grief and hurt.
I'm a few years younger than you but oh yes I remember all of the jargon - "be in the world but not of the world" and "going secular". I fell into evangelical Christianity during the Dubya years, so I can't say what it was like before then, but I had a front row seat to the affirmation of the shift to the right during the Obama/McCain campaign. It didn't matter to them if Obama was a Christian - it was the "wrong" Christianity! Back then they wouldn't say it was because of racism, but now with Rev. Senator Warnock they do - the "problem" is that "black liberation theology"! I became the "token Democrat" amongst my church friends until I left for good in Summer 2015.
I always called what I went through a "faith shift" until I heard the term "deconstruction." I'm annoyed that evangelicals have co-opted the word "deconstruction" because it's the perfect word for leaving toxic, institutional faith behind. No, it doesn't have to end in leaving the very core beliefs in Christianity behind, but it's definitely about leaving the mainstream version behind.
The need to be Republican while being evangelical goes back further than the mid early 2000s. The pressure was on even when I was in college in 1979 (ages ago). Read Jesus and John Wayne for a comprehensive history of how conservative politics and evangelical faith merged to be the force they are today on the right.
Yes, absolutely! I'm talking more about when it reached its full realization of alignment, but you're very correct that a lot of this goes back to the '60s and '70s and shifts around the tenets of conservatism at that time. I would've gone into more depth here but didn't want to go too far afield on this one.
This is also a barnraiser of an essay. Brava.
So interesting! Wow...
I loved this piece and also as a (practicing) Jew I want to hear more reflection or analysis from Christians about the specifics of their culture and why it leads to these particular dynamics.
From the outside it seems like a lot of (white) Protestant, evangelical Christian culture is driven by these intense either/or dynamics - in/out, fallen/saved, good/bad, faith/doubt, staying/leaving, etc. I'm no expert but in my own journey through and in other spiritual, faith, and culture traditions, it seems like these dichotomies are not so stark or central. Given that white Protestant Christianity is the hegemonic culture in the US I would especially like to see more thoughtful writing about how its preoccupations are imposed or leak out onto the rest of us.