Thanks so much for this Tyler and Erin and Anne. As a sociology professor, I'm also guilty of telling students to pursue their passion and let the rest take care of itself, like there's some incredible magic that happens to sort it all out. Which, in retrospect, is very naive. But it sometimes makes me uneasy given that for a lot of my majors, 'pursuing their passion' means going into fields like social work, which are so important, but also will burn them out in a matter of years all while they're being severely underpaid.
This interview also makes me think about the collapse of civic and community life in the United States. If we're being told that all our passion goes into work, then of course we don't have time or energy to volunteer or hang out or, you know, join a bowling league. We don't have time to make friends. We don't have time to talk to our neighbors. Another important piece of the how-capitalism-screws-us puzzle. It's not, for some of us, that we're being forced to work longer hours and put more of our energy into our work. It's that we WANT to, because we believe that's what a good life is supposed to be.
Well that blew my mind. As someone who works in an industry (vet med) where passion is regularly exploited and weaponized against us especially when we want to be compensated for the expertise we bring...I absolutely see how I have been groomed and fashioned in this passion trap. How I have organized my life to do work that I feel passionately about...and how I perpetuate this mindset. Whoof. A lot to think about.
I teach at a large public university, and the students likely to have ‘passion’ language and aspirations are a significant minority, marked by high SES and cultural capital, like this interview notes. Many of our students instead frame their choices about majors and careers through a sort of blunt or simplistic pragmatism that I think has its own problems for longterm happiness or success. Students tell me they are majoring in “general business” because they want to “get a good job”—but when I ask what types of jobs or fields they’re interested in, they don’t know. Parents won’t allow them to major in the humanities or social sciences, because “those aren’t jobs”—and when I point out that many careers rely on a wide-ranging skill set rather than a single degree program, I get blank looks (or contemptuous smiles).
I’m conscious of the damage incurred in the ‘do what you love’ mentoring. On the other hand, I have observed many students who seemed to be slouching through college, bored with their business degree and unsure of what they were doing next…who were excited to develop public presentations about campus history, or to study film and pop culture, or design educational programs for local middle schoolers. But they take our classes as a one-off, and can’t make the connection to how those skills might translate to the rest of their lives…or how sticking with their sources of interest and enthusiasm might mean better grades across their college career, more enthusiastic and detailed letters of rec from professors, more opportunities for internships and referrals, and so on. Many of the ones pursuing this seemingly pragmatic path are, I think, being poorly mentored and advised in their own way, just as much as the DWYL ones are.
I got a chance to talk to some college juniors last year, and I talked about following your passion. I said I doubted anyone in our building’s “passion” was to work on financial data. I did say that something in your job should make you go “Huh!” so you were interested.
Wow, there’s so much to digest here! Looking back over my life I do wonder what it would’ve been like to just have a stable job that paid well and had a good benefits and found my meaning in things that are actually meaningful like relationships instead of trying to find my meaning in my work.
My sister-in-law’s sister and husband both worked for Boeing right out of high school driving delivery trucks. They worked 40 hour weeks and not one minute over and had regular schedules and job stability. They retired at 50 with full benefits and pensions and I was like why did I not do this?! Instead, I pursued passion jobs that were very unstable and had no benefits or pensions or anything like that and that were insanely stressful and bled into my free time. Of course I don’t even know if jobs like the Boeing job even exist anymore but I do think there’s something to be said for just having a job that stable and pays the bills if you can find one.
This is a great and courageous interview, thank you. My father was a physicist who loved poetry, and he firmly believed that you should learn a thing that is NOT your passion, because you'll always do your passion. He'd point out that many scientists are also artists. Of course I rebelled, majored in art, and have (a) struggled financially most of my life, and (b) never really committed to the art, because I was always exhausted by jobs that were not what I wanted to be doing but needed the money - yet never reached a serious professional level with any of them because they were, ahem, not my thing. Lots of reasons I made bad choices and couldn't commit to one thing or the other, always had a foot out the door, but I wish I'd listened to my dad. He would have loved seeing this point of view and agreed with it. Now the inequality part - that is truly groundbreaking for me, as all my friends seem to think I'm just not trying hard enough to "market myself" as an artist.
This was such an affirming interview to read. I work in publishing and people are ABSOLUTELY and EXPLICITLY exploited by their love of books in exchange for bad pay & extreme hours. I enjoy my job but have drawn some firm lines in the sand regarding what I’ll do for it. I like to tell people that my goal is for work to be the smallest slice in the pie of my life. I think younger generations than me (a millennial) are catching onto this, and thank god they are.
When I was in college, I discovered Cal Newport’s books and he also makes a case against “follow your passion.” From what I remember, his framing was more of an appeal to emotion (“pathos”) and wasn’t through a socioeconomic/capitalist lens (which I appreciate about this interview!) and his advice for a career was to pick something you don’t mind spending a few decades getting better at (i.e., honing a craft). It seemed radically practical at a time in my life when the dogma was relentlessly “pursue your passion!” But when I would bring it up with my classmates, they would get upset! They had fully bought in to the passion model and would insist I just needed to double down. So I’m glad that this topic is now becoming more widely discussed. Normalizing alternative decision-making models for what you’ll do for paid work is important, especially for young adults entering the workforce.
This is public radio to a T. When I switched from newspapers to a public radio project in 2010, I had to hire a staff. I was shocked at how low the salaries were. I was also shocked at how long people stayed in their jobs. Many of them had been at it for decades. The excuse then was that they were passionate about audio and there was no where else that they could do it. We all know what has happened since then: podcasts got much bigger, major news organizations jumped into the field, and the money got better. That’s why you saw so many people flee NPR and the stations - there was someplace else to go.
I wonder when exactly the follow your passion became such a driving force. I'm GenX raised by Silent Generation parents who had blue collar roots though had moved to white collar middle class jobs (though were never very economically stable). The need to go to college (and get a scholarship to do so) was drilled into my head starting in kindergarten. The closest thing I ever heard regarding passion was my dad telling me to find a job I love or one that would pay me enough to enjoy my time outside of work. But then again, they also sent me to a fancy private college (see scholarship) where discussing job propects just did happen and the only expected path was grad school. And I majored in something with little obvious job prospects, so I guess I absorbed some of the passion stuff even if it wasn't so clearly articulated.
1. For how these forces have played out in the higher ed workforce (both academic and non-academic employees), Kevin McClure developed a great body of work starting during the pandemic. Highly recommend reading his articles and LinkedIn posts (after the bird site declined) which are backed by research and interviews.
2. For young adults forging paths after high school, Jeff Selingo and others are communicating to as many families and school counselors as possible about building skills in addition to choosing a school and major, and techniques for choosing a path that doesn't involve taking on major student loan debt. See also Ryan Craig on apprenticeships, and Brandon Busted on having employers pay for gaining your degree or credentials.
I inherently bristle when I read about this topic, but it has taken me a while to determine why. I think the answer is nuanced. First, and perhaps most importantly to me, I don’t know how to separate promotion of the Passion Principle from what Anne Helen wrote about a month ago as the Dark Heart of Individualism. I think the former perpetuates the latter and puts self over community. Second, the concept of the Passion Principle is loaded. We celebrate those that have a passion for something to such a degree that if a person doesn’t have a passion for something they are somehow sad, lacking, or unfulfilled. Kids are pushed at an early age to start developing their passions to leverage into resumes and essays that will get them into elite institutions. Good for those kids who really are passionate about something; but no judgment should be passed on those who aren’t. Third, following passion will not necessarily result in happiness in employment. What will? That’s up to the individual - it is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. I very much enjoyed my political science major. I now am a government lawyer. The politics drives me nuts! But what is fulfilling about my job is the sense of satisfaction I derive from serving the public and being a voice of reason in a time of unrest. That was not in my top 5 desired job characteristics when I applied. Why not?
I considered myself “successful” in a passion career, fortunate to have made good money at it. But I look back at decades of it ruling way too much of my life. If I could start over I’d be an electrician.
"The more anchors to sources of fulfillment and identity we have outside of paid employment, the more protected we are from the existential threat of putting all of our meaning-making eggs in the capitalist employment basket."
YES. I want to shout this from the rooftops. Thank you for this insightful interview, Tyler and Erin!
This is wonderful. I am 69 and read, Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow, when I was in my mid thirties. At that point I had a decent union job with an airline. I did not feel I fit there and had longed for more meaningful work. I had been getting involved in women's issues and was the Employee Assistance 'volunteer' rep. I wanted to work with women, specifically, what we called battered women in those days. My passion for this came from my own life experiences growing up in home where there was domestic violence. As time went on I did change directions but it all leaned towards things I was passionate about. Not once did I ask myself some of the wonderful questions (see below) that Erin Cech offered.
"What do you want your relationship to paid work to be? What do you need from your work in addition to a paycheck? Predictable hours? Enjoyable colleagues? Benefits? A respectful boss?"
No one around me had ever asked me these things either. There was however lots of discussion around choosing jobs that made more money and given I did not do this I was ostracized by my family. Considered the flaky one who had such potential but blew it. In some ways they were right but not for the reasons they thought.
I should mention I have no degrees just wide range of certificates and diplomas. I was an avid reader and workshop attendee. I became a writer late in life and published my first collection of poetry when I was sixty. When making any of my career changes I had to get some education and was told I had to do volunteer work. As a low income single mom who lived in a co-op where she had to do volunteer hours to stay housed, all this unpaid labour was painful and hard to do. Several of my original passion projects did not work and at 45 I found myself back at a union job collecting child support and spousal support. Five years into that and I was unable to work any longer so began my writing life which has also involved a lot of volunteer work. Although in some ways it did sting when I read this interview it was a good sting... I think that stinger will be stuck in my hand for a while and I am not complaining. It is an awakening, one that sadly comes too late for me but as one who mentors writers I will remember what I have learned here. I will not send them down the winding path I had to work with. I will ask more questions like the ones mentioned in this interview.
That was a lot. It all just poured out of me seconds after reading this interview. I love what you bring to us Anne. I am so grateful for your thoughtful ways and all the wonderful teachings you share with us.
I enjoy an unhinged house tour myself, and I would live here minus the dolls. I also have Joan Didion books on every shelf and now feeling a bit self-conscious, but what the hell.
Thanks so much for this Tyler and Erin and Anne. As a sociology professor, I'm also guilty of telling students to pursue their passion and let the rest take care of itself, like there's some incredible magic that happens to sort it all out. Which, in retrospect, is very naive. But it sometimes makes me uneasy given that for a lot of my majors, 'pursuing their passion' means going into fields like social work, which are so important, but also will burn them out in a matter of years all while they're being severely underpaid.
This interview also makes me think about the collapse of civic and community life in the United States. If we're being told that all our passion goes into work, then of course we don't have time or energy to volunteer or hang out or, you know, join a bowling league. We don't have time to make friends. We don't have time to talk to our neighbors. Another important piece of the how-capitalism-screws-us puzzle. It's not, for some of us, that we're being forced to work longer hours and put more of our energy into our work. It's that we WANT to, because we believe that's what a good life is supposed to be.
Well that blew my mind. As someone who works in an industry (vet med) where passion is regularly exploited and weaponized against us especially when we want to be compensated for the expertise we bring...I absolutely see how I have been groomed and fashioned in this passion trap. How I have organized my life to do work that I feel passionately about...and how I perpetuate this mindset. Whoof. A lot to think about.
I teach at a large public university, and the students likely to have ‘passion’ language and aspirations are a significant minority, marked by high SES and cultural capital, like this interview notes. Many of our students instead frame their choices about majors and careers through a sort of blunt or simplistic pragmatism that I think has its own problems for longterm happiness or success. Students tell me they are majoring in “general business” because they want to “get a good job”—but when I ask what types of jobs or fields they’re interested in, they don’t know. Parents won’t allow them to major in the humanities or social sciences, because “those aren’t jobs”—and when I point out that many careers rely on a wide-ranging skill set rather than a single degree program, I get blank looks (or contemptuous smiles).
I’m conscious of the damage incurred in the ‘do what you love’ mentoring. On the other hand, I have observed many students who seemed to be slouching through college, bored with their business degree and unsure of what they were doing next…who were excited to develop public presentations about campus history, or to study film and pop culture, or design educational programs for local middle schoolers. But they take our classes as a one-off, and can’t make the connection to how those skills might translate to the rest of their lives…or how sticking with their sources of interest and enthusiasm might mean better grades across their college career, more enthusiastic and detailed letters of rec from professors, more opportunities for internships and referrals, and so on. Many of the ones pursuing this seemingly pragmatic path are, I think, being poorly mentored and advised in their own way, just as much as the DWYL ones are.
I got a chance to talk to some college juniors last year, and I talked about following your passion. I said I doubted anyone in our building’s “passion” was to work on financial data. I did say that something in your job should make you go “Huh!” so you were interested.
Wow, there’s so much to digest here! Looking back over my life I do wonder what it would’ve been like to just have a stable job that paid well and had a good benefits and found my meaning in things that are actually meaningful like relationships instead of trying to find my meaning in my work.
My sister-in-law’s sister and husband both worked for Boeing right out of high school driving delivery trucks. They worked 40 hour weeks and not one minute over and had regular schedules and job stability. They retired at 50 with full benefits and pensions and I was like why did I not do this?! Instead, I pursued passion jobs that were very unstable and had no benefits or pensions or anything like that and that were insanely stressful and bled into my free time. Of course I don’t even know if jobs like the Boeing job even exist anymore but I do think there’s something to be said for just having a job that stable and pays the bills if you can find one.
This is a great and courageous interview, thank you. My father was a physicist who loved poetry, and he firmly believed that you should learn a thing that is NOT your passion, because you'll always do your passion. He'd point out that many scientists are also artists. Of course I rebelled, majored in art, and have (a) struggled financially most of my life, and (b) never really committed to the art, because I was always exhausted by jobs that were not what I wanted to be doing but needed the money - yet never reached a serious professional level with any of them because they were, ahem, not my thing. Lots of reasons I made bad choices and couldn't commit to one thing or the other, always had a foot out the door, but I wish I'd listened to my dad. He would have loved seeing this point of view and agreed with it. Now the inequality part - that is truly groundbreaking for me, as all my friends seem to think I'm just not trying hard enough to "market myself" as an artist.
This was such an affirming interview to read. I work in publishing and people are ABSOLUTELY and EXPLICITLY exploited by their love of books in exchange for bad pay & extreme hours. I enjoy my job but have drawn some firm lines in the sand regarding what I’ll do for it. I like to tell people that my goal is for work to be the smallest slice in the pie of my life. I think younger generations than me (a millennial) are catching onto this, and thank god they are.
When I was in college, I discovered Cal Newport’s books and he also makes a case against “follow your passion.” From what I remember, his framing was more of an appeal to emotion (“pathos”) and wasn’t through a socioeconomic/capitalist lens (which I appreciate about this interview!) and his advice for a career was to pick something you don’t mind spending a few decades getting better at (i.e., honing a craft). It seemed radically practical at a time in my life when the dogma was relentlessly “pursue your passion!” But when I would bring it up with my classmates, they would get upset! They had fully bought in to the passion model and would insist I just needed to double down. So I’m glad that this topic is now becoming more widely discussed. Normalizing alternative decision-making models for what you’ll do for paid work is important, especially for young adults entering the workforce.
This is public radio to a T. When I switched from newspapers to a public radio project in 2010, I had to hire a staff. I was shocked at how low the salaries were. I was also shocked at how long people stayed in their jobs. Many of them had been at it for decades. The excuse then was that they were passionate about audio and there was no where else that they could do it. We all know what has happened since then: podcasts got much bigger, major news organizations jumped into the field, and the money got better. That’s why you saw so many people flee NPR and the stations - there was someplace else to go.
I wonder when exactly the follow your passion became such a driving force. I'm GenX raised by Silent Generation parents who had blue collar roots though had moved to white collar middle class jobs (though were never very economically stable). The need to go to college (and get a scholarship to do so) was drilled into my head starting in kindergarten. The closest thing I ever heard regarding passion was my dad telling me to find a job I love or one that would pay me enough to enjoy my time outside of work. But then again, they also sent me to a fancy private college (see scholarship) where discussing job propects just did happen and the only expected path was grad school. And I majored in something with little obvious job prospects, so I guess I absorbed some of the passion stuff even if it wasn't so clearly articulated.
Two thoughts --
1. For how these forces have played out in the higher ed workforce (both academic and non-academic employees), Kevin McClure developed a great body of work starting during the pandemic. Highly recommend reading his articles and LinkedIn posts (after the bird site declined) which are backed by research and interviews.
2. For young adults forging paths after high school, Jeff Selingo and others are communicating to as many families and school counselors as possible about building skills in addition to choosing a school and major, and techniques for choosing a path that doesn't involve taking on major student loan debt. See also Ryan Craig on apprenticeships, and Brandon Busted on having employers pay for gaining your degree or credentials.
I inherently bristle when I read about this topic, but it has taken me a while to determine why. I think the answer is nuanced. First, and perhaps most importantly to me, I don’t know how to separate promotion of the Passion Principle from what Anne Helen wrote about a month ago as the Dark Heart of Individualism. I think the former perpetuates the latter and puts self over community. Second, the concept of the Passion Principle is loaded. We celebrate those that have a passion for something to such a degree that if a person doesn’t have a passion for something they are somehow sad, lacking, or unfulfilled. Kids are pushed at an early age to start developing their passions to leverage into resumes and essays that will get them into elite institutions. Good for those kids who really are passionate about something; but no judgment should be passed on those who aren’t. Third, following passion will not necessarily result in happiness in employment. What will? That’s up to the individual - it is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. I very much enjoyed my political science major. I now am a government lawyer. The politics drives me nuts! But what is fulfilling about my job is the sense of satisfaction I derive from serving the public and being a voice of reason in a time of unrest. That was not in my top 5 desired job characteristics when I applied. Why not?
I considered myself “successful” in a passion career, fortunate to have made good money at it. But I look back at decades of it ruling way too much of my life. If I could start over I’d be an electrician.
"The more anchors to sources of fulfillment and identity we have outside of paid employment, the more protected we are from the existential threat of putting all of our meaning-making eggs in the capitalist employment basket."
YES. I want to shout this from the rooftops. Thank you for this insightful interview, Tyler and Erin!
This is wonderful. I am 69 and read, Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow, when I was in my mid thirties. At that point I had a decent union job with an airline. I did not feel I fit there and had longed for more meaningful work. I had been getting involved in women's issues and was the Employee Assistance 'volunteer' rep. I wanted to work with women, specifically, what we called battered women in those days. My passion for this came from my own life experiences growing up in home where there was domestic violence. As time went on I did change directions but it all leaned towards things I was passionate about. Not once did I ask myself some of the wonderful questions (see below) that Erin Cech offered.
"What do you want your relationship to paid work to be? What do you need from your work in addition to a paycheck? Predictable hours? Enjoyable colleagues? Benefits? A respectful boss?"
No one around me had ever asked me these things either. There was however lots of discussion around choosing jobs that made more money and given I did not do this I was ostracized by my family. Considered the flaky one who had such potential but blew it. In some ways they were right but not for the reasons they thought.
I should mention I have no degrees just wide range of certificates and diplomas. I was an avid reader and workshop attendee. I became a writer late in life and published my first collection of poetry when I was sixty. When making any of my career changes I had to get some education and was told I had to do volunteer work. As a low income single mom who lived in a co-op where she had to do volunteer hours to stay housed, all this unpaid labour was painful and hard to do. Several of my original passion projects did not work and at 45 I found myself back at a union job collecting child support and spousal support. Five years into that and I was unable to work any longer so began my writing life which has also involved a lot of volunteer work. Although in some ways it did sting when I read this interview it was a good sting... I think that stinger will be stuck in my hand for a while and I am not complaining. It is an awakening, one that sadly comes too late for me but as one who mentors writers I will remember what I have learned here. I will not send them down the winding path I had to work with. I will ask more questions like the ones mentioned in this interview.
That was a lot. It all just poured out of me seconds after reading this interview. I love what you bring to us Anne. I am so grateful for your thoughtful ways and all the wonderful teachings you share with us.
I enjoy an unhinged house tour myself, and I would live here minus the dolls. I also have Joan Didion books on every shelf and now feeling a bit self-conscious, but what the hell.